Modern media relations with AI

Episode Graphic: On Top of PR with Jason Mudd podcast: Modern media relations with Shelby Bridges and show host Jason Mudd

In this episode, Qwoted’s Shelby Bridges joins host Jason Mudd to discuss how AI, shrinking newsrooms, and faster news cycles are reshaping modern media relations and earned media strategies.

Tune in to learn more!

Watch the episode here:

Meet our guest:

Our guest is Shelby Bridges, director of customer success at Qwoted. Shelby works at the intersection of PR, media, and technology, helping communicators build stronger relationships with journalists through smarter, more strategic data usage and platforms like Qwoted. She leads training, demos, and user initiatives that support agencies and brands in a fast-moving media landscape.

5 things you’ll learn during the full episode:

Why modern news cycles now behave like breaking news by default
How shrinking newsrooms are increasing pressure on journalists and PR teams
Why responding within 48 hours significantly increases placement success
How AI is changing pitching, and why similarity is becoming a problem
Why diversification of angles and sources is critical for credibility

Listen to the episode here:

Quotables

“All news is almost breaking news now. It has to be told immediately and as quickly as possible because somebody else is already writing it.” — Shelby Bridges
“The people who are responding within the first 48 hours are the ones that are winning.” — Shelby Bridges
“Everybody should be able to use AI to pitch — but not to falsify data, personas, or companies.” — Shelby Bridges
“What journalists need is something that stands out and isn’t generic.” — Shelby Bridges
“If people in the room all look like you, you're not going to hear as good or thoughtful storytelling and insights as you might want.” — Jason Mudd

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Resources

Guest’s contact info and resources:

Additional Resources:

If you like this episode, you're going to love this:

Recorded: March 13, 2026

About your host Jason Mudd

Jason Mudd is a nationally recognized public relations expert featured by CNN, Entrepreneur, Forbes, NPR, The New York Times, PRWeek, and The Wall Street Journal.

Named North America’s top PR leader by the World Communication Forum, he serves as Partner of Axia Public Relations — recognized by Forbes as one of America’s Best PR Agencies.

Jason has advised some of the country’s most admired and fastest-growing companies, leading campaigns for iconic brands including American Airlines, Budweiser, Dave & Buster’s, GE, H&R Block, Hilton, HP, Miller Lite, New York Life, Pizza Hut, Southern Comfort, and Verizon.

He’s also a professional public speaker, accredited PR practitioner, published author, entrepreneur, and host of On Top of PR with Jason Mudd — a podcast ranked among the top 2.5% globally by Listen Notes and a top 100 marketing podcast on Apple Podcasts. His guests have included leaders from Disney, Microsoft, Southwest Airlines, and Wells Fargo. Learn more about Jason at https://www.axiapr.com/team/jason-mudd and jasonmudd.com.

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Transcript

Episode Transcript

00:00:00:01 - 00:00:12:06

Shelby

all news is almost breaking news now where it could be the smallest thing, but it's has to be told immediately and as quickly as possible because somebody else is already writing it, because it's available everywhere.

00:00:12:06 - 00:00:19:22

Shelby

And yeah, it's it's a strange, strange dynamic. So there are less resources than ever. But you have to do it four times faster.

00:00:20:00 - 00:00:29:10

Announcer

Welcome to On Top of PR with Jason Mudd.

00:00:29:12 - 00:00:38:18

Jason

Hello and welcome to on top of PR, I'm your host, Jason Mudd with Axia Public Relations. Today I'm joined by Shelley Bridges and Shelley is somebody we've been working with at Axia for several years now.

00:00:38:22 - 00:01:08:13

Jason

Shelley is with quoted, she's the head of user success, working at the intersection of PR, media and technology to help communicators build smarter, more strategic relationships with journalists. She leads training, demos and user initiatives that empower agencies and brands to stand out in a competitive media landscape. Shelley is passionate about elevating media relations, best practices and strengthening meaningful connections within the quoted community.

00:01:08:13 - 00:01:12:08

Jason

Shelby. Finally, welcome to on top of PR.

00:01:12:10 - 00:01:15:11

Shelby

I know, yeah, I feel like we've been trying to plan this for a while.

00:01:15:13 - 00:01:19:12

Jason

We have and you've been playing hard to get, but I finally got you.

00:01:19:14 - 00:01:19:17

Shelby

Yeah,

00:01:19:23 - 00:01:26:22

Shelby

I don't think it's me playing hard to get. I think it's, the, industry playing hard to get. It's hard to find time.

00:01:27:00 - 00:01:53:16

Jason

Yes. No, I understand. Well, the what I think caused this was your team sent out a, end of year kind of summary for 2025 of, what your platform was seeing as far as analytics, performance and benchmarks. And that seemed interesting to me, and I thought it would be interesting to our audience. So really, our topic today is modern media relations with AI.

00:01:53:19 - 00:02:23:23

Jason

But we want to talk about to kick things off. Really what your, what your report kind of uncovered after doing, I guess, a year of, analysis. But first, let's stop because I don't know how well, our audience is familiar was quoted. So why don't you give them a quick explanation of what quote it is and, and then, an explanation of what this, the, these benchmarks, not what they showed, but what you were trying to accomplish in them and what kind of data did it access.

00:02:24:01 - 00:02:43:03

Shelby

Yeah, yeah. So quoted is a two sided network. One side of the network being journalist or more broadly put, media users. So anybody looking for an audience looking for experts and sources to pull into their stories. And then on the other side, we have peers, we have experts, we have sources who are in here representing themselves.

00:02:43:03 - 00:02:59:09

Shelby

And so it's a nice way to kind of connect the two of those audiences together. The I, I said this earlier this week and it's kind of funny, I didn't I said it and then I was like, oh, I guess it kind of is true. But we we sit really in the middle of those two audiences. Right?

00:02:59:09 - 00:03:17:06

Shelby

And so we have a very unique vantage point compared to most people. Right. You have a lot of PR within like a well, I assume journalists want this, and you have journalists who are like, well, I assume peers are dealing with this. And so oftentimes what it ends up being is we're like mom and dad in the middle of being like, it's don't fight that fighting.

00:03:17:08 - 00:03:23:16

Shelby

And so how can we help translate what the other audience is going to to the other one? And I think there's

00:03:23:16 - 00:03:34:13

Shelby

there's so much assumed like, oh, all all the journalists are grumpy and angry and nobody wants to work with us. And then on the other side, it's like, well, all the PR is don't care about what we do in our work.

00:03:34:13 - 00:03:38:15

Shelby

And so it's, it's trying to help everybody bridge that gap. So

00:03:38:17 - 00:03:59:13

Shelby

when we put together that end of year summary, it was with the goal of understanding this may be what your agency's going through, but how can you translate that work into what journalists are dealing with every single day? And on the flip side, journalist, this is what agencies are going through and this is what they're competing against in the space.

00:03:59:15 - 00:04:19:05

Shelby

How can you translate putting your stories together and working with them too? So, you know, of course, a lot of that comes down to like, how are people using AI? How is AI hindering and or hurting you? What does it look like when a journalist is looking for sources for their stories? One of those time frames look like how quickly do they need it?

00:04:19:05 - 00:04:38:10

Shelby

How can they verify and vet that people are in fact real, which is a crazy thing to say in this day, right? But yeah, that's the biggest hurdle of it all. Like who's real out there? And I find myself asking that every single day. I didn't realize that a big portion of my job was going to be finding the fakes out there and being like, get out of the network.

00:04:38:10 - 00:04:43:16

Shelby

We want this for the good and the real people out here trying to support one another.

00:04:43:18 - 00:05:06:23

Jason

Yeah, okay. So I've got lots of questions. So first of all, it sounds like you're talking about kind of being like a moderator between the two professions and you know, it's funny, we're in we're in the public relations profession. And I say all the time, it's it's time we put relationships back into public relations because, you know, people are so focused on, you know, either publicity or image management and things like that.

00:05:06:23 - 00:05:45:14

Jason

And it's really about building relationships. And, you know, if not, then maybe you should pivot what you call yourself or how you describe yourself, is is what I would prescribe to that. But yes, I mean, there is this interesting tension, between public relations, media relations professionals and journalist editors, producers, news directors, and, you know, I think that we're, you know, a friendly, and complementary skill set to each other, especially those people, I think, who practice media relations, who have been in a media employment, worked in a newsroom before.

00:05:45:14 - 00:06:10:07

Jason

You know, that's one of the first questions I asked somebody is, have you ever worked in a newsroom before? And while newsrooms are changing and newsrooms are almost extinct in many ways, you know, because, I know in the metropolitan area I live in, you know, everybody at that newspaper works from home now, and, and half the staff isn't even in the market anymore, which I think is a sad state of, you know, the product that they're producing, to be very candid with you.

00:06:10:07 - 00:06:43:09

Jason

But at the end of the day, I do sense there's some tension. I do sense that, you know, sometimes both parties are more interested in serving themselves than they are, you know, being helpful. Meaning that when I just had this conversation yesterday. Right. If our client or a spokesperson from a company, Shelby, can't make an interview, and let's just say a podcast like this, something came up, and they have to, to, to punt or reschedule or postpone or be late.

00:06:43:11 - 00:07:02:15

Jason

The odds are that there was a good reason and a higher priority or a higher and better use of that person's time in that moment. It could be a crisis, could be personal, could be professional, could be, you know, an angry shareholder wants to have a phone call. You know, we've got to put, you know, we got to put the fire out here or something else is going on.

00:07:02:15 - 00:07:34:12

Jason

Right. But in my experience, yeah. And it happens. In my experience, journalist will have the same, challenges. Meaning that a bigger, better story that circumvents this story has popped up. Sometimes that's breaking news. And so I've produced plenty of news conferences, Shelby, where, you know, I've got 3 or 4 members of the media in attendance and they get rerouted somewhere else because there's, you know, and one particular story, there was a hostage situation, you know, 15 blocks away.

00:07:34:12 - 00:07:53:11

Jason

And they were the closest, you know, news team that could go pivot over there and go cover that. And the good news is, my client came out of the PR ranks, are starting journalism and worked in PR and was now an executive director of this nonprofit making this announcement. And so she got it. You know, there's a how do you compete with the hostage situation?

00:07:53:13 - 00:08:09:20

Jason

You know, you can't you don't. And so, you know, she saw that we had all the major media there. And she saw that they were either getting out of their trucks or inside the building and then all had to leave, you know, except for a couple of community newspapers who, you know, they just didn't know what's going on.

00:08:09:22 - 00:08:33:01

Jason

But my point in saying that is that I do sense and this is what I was saying just yesterday to somebody, I don't think the scales are even meaning that if my client or the company spokesperson has to bail on a story, it doesn't feel as equally acceptable as if I got reassigned to something else. And I can't do this story today or ever, you know, kind of thing.

00:08:33:05 - 00:08:49:15

Jason

And so I think that creates a little bit of tension to is, you know, it's all about reputation, right? If I have a good reputation or Axia or the agency or the PR person has a great reputation with the reporter and we say, hey, this happened, you know, that's not normal for us. They're going to be forgiving.

00:08:49:18 - 00:09:09:09

Jason

But if it's the first impression right, then that doesn't normally work out well. And it's at the end of the day. It's also because, and I know you know this, but I'm explain this to our audience. It's also because that, that journalist is accountable to an editor or a producer who's going to hold their feet to the fire.

00:09:09:09 - 00:09:33:10

Jason

And so they're upset about the conversation they're about to go have to have. Whereas I think on the other side of the coin, the executive who turned down the interview probably doesn't have a boss who's going to be like, why did you bail on that opportunity? Like the executive or spokesperson is probably the boss, and they made a decision based on their own discretion, right, or their own autonomy that this was not the best use of my time in this moment.

00:09:33:10 - 00:09:39:07

Jason

I would love to reschedule it, but I can't be two places at once. Do you do you agree with that theory?

00:09:39:09 - 00:09:57:16

Shelby

Yeah. I mean, it's it's twofold, right. Like on the the expert side one, it's it's 10 to 1 for experts right. Like I okay I couldn't use you for this story. But there's ten other experts probably somewhere in the world. At least they speak to me about the same thing. Sure. Like you said. Like, yeah, you had to bail on that.

00:09:57:16 - 00:10:20:19

Shelby

Nobody's really holding you accountable because there's not immediate or, like, instant return on getting earned media, right? We're like, okay, we missed out on that article. But like six months from now, you do see the ramifications of being featured in these outlets, and you see that right over time. But it's not that instant gratification, where it's like, okay, you know, I'm not missing a paycheck because I didn't do this opportunity.

00:10:20:21 - 00:10:40:15

Shelby

And then on the journalist side, it's like, okay, well, that newsroom used to have somebody where they wouldn't have to cancel that interview because there was an emergency, you know, hostage situation, something like that, because there was plenty of people there to cover all of the stories. You know, they just got to focus on one beat. They just right focus or be in the office.

00:10:40:15 - 00:11:03:19

Shelby

And there was people who did breaking news and there's everybody else. And so now the journalists that are still in these newsrooms, they're covering more beats than ever. They are short staffed, they don't have support or admins. And it's yeah, I think there's a there's an immense amount of pressure for keeping on top of all the stories and the expectations, because just because the newsrooms have shrunk doesn't mean their workloads have.

00:11:03:19 - 00:11:17:18

Shelby

If anything, they've tripled, quadrupled, and then stories now, the way that they're told to do to social media and AI and everything else, they're coming out faster than ever. So you have to be on top of that. So it's

00:11:17:20 - 00:11:30:01

Shelby

00:11:30:01 - 00:11:37:17

Shelby

And yeah, it's it's a strange, strange dynamic. So there are less resources than ever. But you have to do it four times faster.

00:11:37:19 - 00:11:57:15

Jason

Right? Yeah, yeah. Very cool. So I do we have so much to talk about today and I'll try to hold back some of my thoughts as well because, you know, as you're talking like, yes. And this happens and whatever. But, we want to talk about faster, clean, faster, clearer, more credible modern media pitching with AI.

00:11:57:17 - 00:12:18:04

Jason

We also want to talk about, your, your, your, study that you did a research. You did. So, why don't we jump into that, and tell us more about kind of the concept behind it, the the data collection that was used, all at a high level. Right? We're not data scientists here. So. And then then lastly, what were the findings?

00:12:18:04 - 00:12:21:07

Jason

And and and then we'll jump into the other topics.

00:12:21:09 - 00:12:43:03

Shelby

Yeah. I mean, maybe let's talk with like I think there's two, two big pieces of like what we see from the journalist side. Right. Like we want to be relatable to the journalist. So how are we getting in their inboxes and how does it how to how do we see it? And I think that the two biggest things that we find is one, those those deadlines are tighter than ever.

00:12:43:03 - 00:13:06:14

Shelby

So we're seeing a decrease in the time frame in which they need information for their stories. We're seeing that tick up year over year. Last year was no exception. We're also seeing that even if my deadline is seven days, that journalists are engaging with, opposed to our responses to their opportunities and their stories faster than, you know, before that seven days.

00:13:06:14 - 00:13:27:14

Shelby

So even if my deadline is seven days from now, what we're seeing is most of the time the people who are responding within the first 48 hours are the ones that are winning. So anything after that 48 hour point, we see a substantial drop off in the overall success rate. And that's just we we took that based on, you know, where we're seeing response and engagement in quoted.

00:13:27:14 - 00:13:54:06

Shelby

Obviously we see every single opportunity. So we have a benchmark of when was this posted, when were the first responses? When was it, when did we start seeing responses to individuals in that inbox. And then when was that actual deadline listed? So those deadlines, even though they're shrinking, I think that there's even like an unwritten deadline, even below the shrunken deadline, where it's like, you've got to be in here faster and you've got to be one of the first and the most credible in that inbox.

00:13:54:08 - 00:14:04:06

Jason

So I'm writing within 24 hours. You said 24 to 48, but we have to pad deadlines. We have to tell clients 24 hours so that hopefully that we get it from them in 48.

00:14:04:06 - 00:14:07:01

Shelby

But if it's 48, tell your client half.

00:14:07:02 - 00:14:29:02

Jason

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I'm going to add to what you're saying is, you know, we're seeing where you, you said the deadlines listed as Friday, but then so you so maybe you get the, the opportunity on Tuesday. You tell your client we have till Friday. Client takes their time because you didn't give them a tight deadline. They send it to you Thursday afternoon, and then you clean it up and you go to submit it.

00:14:29:02 - 00:14:51:08

Jason

And then it's like reporters are no longer accepting, you know, has everything. Whatever. How are you worded? I know you know how to word it or how you guys word it, but then you're just like, oh man, now how do I go? The client explain this. So yesterday I was just telling somebody, you know, hey, there might be a deadline, but that's a, that's a deadline is not the deadline of when they're going to stop accepting store or, you know, pitches or experts.

00:14:51:08 - 00:14:56:11

Jason

So what what do you guys call that when you when you stop it from accepting new ones.

00:14:56:12 - 00:15:11:00

Shelby

And so and we actually don't stop at the journalists to go in and they get right, they get to essentially indicate that they have what they need. Okay. So there's a little trigger for that. And we get so many people coming in to our emails and our inboxes being like, why did you guys let them turn this off?

00:15:11:00 - 00:15:27:04

Shelby

They said their deadline was seven days from now. And it's like, yeah, I can't control when somebody gets that. They need their story. And frankly, like I get that it's frustrating. And you plan for the 6 or 7 days. But also nice of the journalists to say, like, hey, I'm not going to use what you send to me, right?

00:15:27:04 - 00:15:48:19

Shelby

Like they they don't have to tell you that. Like they would just ignore it regardless. So yes, at least they're putting it out there like, hey, use this content elsewhere, recycle, do something with it. Because I based on what I already have, I don't need anything else. And so I think of it as a positive. But some people get so mad and it's like I understand the frustration, but like, yeah, yeah, shift your shift your expectations as well.

00:15:48:19 - 00:15:50:18

Shelby

Yeah. Because you got to compete. Yeah.

00:15:50:20 - 00:16:17:09

Jason

Yeah. It's a great reminder for anybody, whether they're in media relations or they're involved in the process or looking to get involved in it. So, you mentioned kind of recycle or reuse, repurpose that content. I would love to ask you this question, which is if I respond to a quoted request, media request or media query from anybody and let's say I'm the fit for it is Jason Mudd.

00:16:17:13 - 00:16:38:20

Jason

And they're asking about, you know, reputation or image or corporate communication type questions. And I answer it and I submit it. How long should I wait to repurpose that for my other, content? At Axia, would you say, should I wait at all? Should I wait until they publish? What? What are your thoughts?

00:16:38:22 - 00:16:56:21

Shelby

I mean, the the word for word publishing, I would say, I wait to try to find when that story goes live to see it for used or not, because as as we all know, of course, we would love to know that a journalist is going to use our stuff every single time. But that's not the reality. Sometimes they don't even know when the stories go live or.

00:16:56:23 - 00:17:29:10

Shelby

Who their editors going to cut or not from the story. So if the exact content itself, but if you can rephrase, rewrite kind of reconstruct the overall message a little bit and recycle that, I say you can do that almost instantly. We do have a feature in quoted. And this is not trying to be like a shameless plug, but I think it's very, very cool, especially as it relates to trending and breaking news, which is, as we know, especially in the last year, everything seems to be breaking all the time.

00:17:29:10 - 00:17:49:21

Shelby

You know, it's like every time I log into court, I'm like, what's breaking today? Like it's crazy. So, there is a function, so say there's maybe some type of like reputation opportunity. And it's because something's happening in the news cycle. When you go to pitch, there's a little option that says summarize this pitch. And what that will do is kind of showcase you as an expert on that, that trending subject.

00:17:49:21 - 00:18:11:02

Shelby

So if another journalist is logged in to quoted and they're writing on that same topic where they're like, oh yeah, this is a breaking news subject, who can write on this? It's helping to elevate your voice to them directly without them having to submit a request to the network, without them having to search for sources of saying, like, these people are in here already talking about this subject, you should go to them directly.

00:18:11:05 - 00:18:30:06

Shelby

So, you know, we talk about this week like we've got a lot of oil experts, you know, people trying to understand our oil price is going to rise or they're going to fall based on what's going on in Iran. And so those people, as long as they're summarizing and quoted, they just got kind of incoming direct messages all day long where it's like, hey, I see you're willing to speak on this subject.

00:18:30:06 - 00:18:31:04

Shelby

Can we connect really

00:18:31:04 - 00:18:32:03

Shelby

quick?

00:18:32:05 - 00:18:55:18

Jason

Yeah, yeah. So I'm glad you mentioned that feature. I've seen it, you know, so for for full transparency, I'm not actively pitching our clients. We have team members that are, you know, experts in that and do that all day long. But I will pitch or respawn myself when I see an opportunity that fits my area of expertise in my practice area, or just public relations corporate communication overall.

00:18:55:20 - 00:19:14:18

Jason

Yeah. And I've seen that that's the the little checkbox at the bottom, when you go to hit submit. Right. So my question I've always wondered what that looks like meaning. And you've described it well. So thank you for that. But meaning I was always concerned. Well, if I'm responding to Sally with this and she asked for this, does that mean it's going to five other journalists who didn't ask?

00:19:14:18 - 00:19:29:11

Jason

And now they've, you know, gotten a shortcut based on what Sally's covering. So what is the journalist's view of that. And, and maybe there's a screenshot or something that you could show us. Of of what that looks like to a journalist.

00:19:29:13 - 00:19:52:08

Shelby

Yeah. I don't have a screenshot from, like, the journalist side, but in your profile you would see that there's a recent commentary section. So you'll see how it's summarized. So it's like trying to take like that that journalist specific idea, for example. There's just a recent commentary section where you'll see it's, it's using AI, right. Like and it's we are 100% we are on board with AI.

00:19:52:08 - 00:20:11:08

Shelby

It's just using AI properly, which we can dig into that too. Because I think so many people think like, coded hates AI and it's like, that's not the case. We love it. We use it. All those emails you get from us, that's AI. So it's it's definitely very, very powerful in that it can rewrite it, but it's not trying to strip, you know, that original journalist story idea.

00:20:11:08 - 00:20:32:15

Shelby

It's just trying to say this person's an expert in this space, and they can speak on the following. So when the journalist logs in, depending on their beat, what they've written in the past, there's kind of those those overall buckets are trending subject areas to say, okay, you know, because, you know, nobody's got an original idea really right now as it relates to the oil prices in Iran.

00:20:32:15 - 00:20:51:03

Shelby

Right. But there's a lot of journalists coming in saying, I need experts and economists and all these people who can speak on it. So how do we readily surface those people who have recently been quoted, we can give them a really quick snippet of how that person can speak on the subject, and we can give them a direct outlet to just go to them directly without having to do a lot of research.

00:20:51:05 - 00:21:09:15

Jason

Nice. So, I'm glad we're covering that because I always wondered how that looks. To, people, let's talk about, you know, also the AI thing where you say you where I know I can submit and click and say, you know, I what do you call it, an AI checker or what? What's the term?

00:21:09:17 - 00:21:12:04

Shelby

Yeah. It's just I think it just says, like, check for AI on it.

00:21:12:04 - 00:21:13:05

Jason

Yeah, yeah.

00:21:13:06 - 00:21:14:05

Shelby

So yeah.

00:21:14:07 - 00:21:36:18

Jason

So I, I've got a question about that. I've used that and it's come back and give me a percentage and and let's just say I've gone back in and I've made revisions to my draft, just generally speaking, before I submit it, I've noticed that AI feature button goes away now where it used to stay. What's the rationale for that?

00:21:36:20 - 00:21:39:20

Shelby

Well, we pay for it every time you click that button.

00:21:39:22 - 00:21:40:05

Jason

Oh.

00:21:40:11 - 00:21:43:08

Shelby

Right. I mean, simply it's it is that

00:21:43:10 - 00:21:54:13

Shelby

though, it just like most things in life. Jason, you've got a few bad eggs that kind of ruin the fun for everybody. I mean, we even just look at, like, AI, for example, right?

00:21:54:19 - 00:22:08:12

Shelby

Everybody should be able to use AI to pitch, and we should be able to use it in a way where we're not falsifying data, we're not falsifying personas, we're not falsifying companies, and we're not getting quoted in media outlets.

00:22:08:12 - 00:22:16:14

Shelby

And a journalist is like, oh, wow, I just completely quoted a fake company and persona and all the stuff in a story, and now I, I look like the idiot.

00:22:16:16 - 00:22:29:13

Shelby

So there's companies out there that are building these personas, and they're using ChatGPT on like an expansive level to. So they would take, like a journalist request, plug it into ChatGPT and then they just copy paste.

00:22:29:15 - 00:22:47:13

Shelby

And so how do we rule those out? How do we how do we say like, okay, based on how the profile looks based on how this pitch looks, how can we quickly give you those indicators to not proceed with this person or to flag this person to asset coded so that we can remove them from the network? But then the same thing goes for the check AI function.

00:22:47:13 - 00:23:00:03

Shelby

So we have the best intentions behind it being like, hey, we our goal is to not rat you out to a journalist. It is to you. It's to give you the tools to see. Like, this is what we're competing against. You know, I've had accountants, I've had.

00:23:00:05 - 00:23:04:17

Jason

Snitches get stitches. Right. That's what they said. Yeah. So be careful. Yeah.

00:23:04:18 - 00:23:22:14

Shelby

But I've had you know, I've had accountants come in and say like I didn't use AI and it's like, yes, but. And what you write is very scientific in nature. It does it reads a little bit like AI, right. Because it's very, you know, like I could pull that from the internet anywhere because that is a very specific topic that you can't really rewrite in other ways.

00:23:22:14 - 00:23:41:15

Shelby

So there's yeah, there's a leeway of percentage of how much I should be allowable. It's those ones that reflect is 100%. So then what you have is with these, these bad actors who will go and falsify 100% of a pitch, they would then go into quoted and we would just see that they would be clicking that eye button 100 times.

00:23:41:17 - 00:23:57:22

Shelby

And so, so they're just like, oh, okay. Now it's down to 98. Okay. Let's change this wording. Oh, now it's 96. And they would sit there and we've, we've seen like pitches or people that were clicking at like I said, upward of 100 times just to submit one pitch. And so they get it. They get it down to, you know, like in the 30s or whatever.

00:23:57:22 - 00:24:22:21

Shelby

So it looks more human. So then it's like, okay, now we're still incentivizing bad behavior because now the journalist thinks that it's a good pitch. So that's where we have it disappear. Of course, you know, Pan Graham has free access and we a people can go and subscribe to themselves. They can use their own tools. I think it's really just to give you that really early indicator of like, hey, this is a tool that we support the most.

00:24:22:21 - 00:24:30:04

Shelby

Out of all the AI checkers out there, everybody will hear me say, these tools are not perfect. There's no way for them to be perfect, but they're.

00:24:30:04 - 00:24:31:08

Jason

Definitely not perfect.

00:24:31:10 - 00:24:48:01

Shelby

Yeah, yeah, but Pan Gram has the least amount of false positives, which is why we've partnered with them. You know, who's to say that won't change in a few months? We might have to change platforms again, because we were using GPT zero last year, and that had become to the point where it was easily,

00:24:48:03 - 00:24:48:18

Jason

Manipulated.

00:24:48:18 - 00:25:09:23

Shelby

To. Yeah. Yep. You could easily, like, kind of get past it as human writing. So since it's been, you know, kind of struggling to keep up, that's why we switched over to Pan Gram. So yeah. Long story short. Yeah. It's a it's not free for us either. But we want to make sure that you guys have those tools, especially maybe you have a client that submitted something to you that was AI and you were unaware of it.

00:25:10:00 - 00:25:20:03

Shelby

It at least gives you that idea to be like, how is this going to look when I submit my reputation on behalf of my client? Right. And I don't want to hinder that reputation at any way.

00:25:20:05 - 00:25:39:08

Jason

Yeah, okay. Got it. Thanks for sharing that. You know, you're right. None of these tools are perfect to identify. And, you know, I definitely can recall situations where I've written something. It's like 100% AI. And I'm like, well, unless I'm an AI bought, you know, it's 100% human right now. But, you know, so those things happen.

00:25:39:10 - 00:25:56:12

Jason

And so when you submit a pitch, or a response reply to a request in the quoted platform, it goes to the reporter. Does the reporter see some sort of badge or a little indicator of what percentage of it is AI when they view it? No. Okay. So tell me more about that.

00:25:56:12 - 00:25:58:15

Shelby

They have to they have to hit the button just like you do.

00:25:58:16 - 00:25:59:13

Jason

Okay. Just like we did.

00:25:59:13 - 00:26:15:14

Shelby

Okay. Yep. So we give the same tool to them because what we found was that they were using free and or cheats, which means not good tools to check for AI. So then they were flying things as being like this is AI and we're like, what are you using? Because this is yeah, this is a very good pitch and you should not discount this person.

00:26:15:16 - 00:26:30:07

Shelby

So that's where we're like, hey, we'll pay for it. But you know, like let's use the same one at least so that we're all on the same page and kind of benchmarking the same things here. So yeah, but they still have to click it. So if they want to use their own, they're obviously they're more than welcome to do that.

00:26:30:09 - 00:26:38:00

Shelby

We put that in there. They have to click it each time. We don't say up front like what that percentage or anything shows. Okay. Yeah.

00:26:38:02 - 00:26:45:15

Jason

So if mine came back and said 100% AI is that way, I lost the ability to do it again.

00:26:45:17 - 00:26:53:21

Shelby

Now it's just, it's just once you click it one time, it just disappears. So then that way, people are just continuing to click until they get.

00:26:53:21 - 00:26:59:07

Jason

So that's across the board. Now. From now on your own, you get one shot to see if it's AI or not.

00:26:59:09 - 00:27:02:02

Shelby

Yeah. Yeah okay. You could just go to like Pam graham.com.

00:27:02:04 - 00:27:10:05

Jason

Sure sure sure. But I'm just saying like if in the for for planning purposes, don't click that AI button until you're happy with your final draft.

00:27:10:07 - 00:27:23:03

Shelby

Yeah yeah yeah. Or if you see it and you're like, oh shoot this does look like I like let me go and rewrite it. And then I'm going to have to like log in to pan grammar or something else, or just to make sure or reach out to my client and be like, hey, how did you put this content together?

00:27:23:05 - 00:27:23:21

Shelby

Right.

00:27:23:23 - 00:27:24:20

Jason

Well, I mean.

00:27:24:22 - 00:27:25:16

Shelby

Correct.

00:27:25:18 - 00:27:48:17

Jason

True confession, you know? Hi, my name is Jason and I'm a perfectionist, so I submit, you know, I'll play with it multiple times before I submit it, which I think is sharpening the end result. You know. So I kind of my process is just to respond to the answers with the best. I, of my ability and then kind of go through one more time and tighten up my work, go through another time and say, okay, is this what the journalist wanted to hear?

00:27:48:22 - 00:28:07:12

Jason

So I tighten that up and then I'm like, okay, am I truly quotable in this moment? And, you know, so I go through different phases of getting it just right. But you know, that finessing and fine tuning and making it 1% with each, better with each revision is what helps us get quoted, you know, on, on the platform and helps us stand out.

00:28:07:13 - 00:28:22:09

Jason

So Shelby, this is interesting. I'm learning a lot about your platform, and we've been using it for years. And I'm not any by any means a power user, but I'm probably using it more than our average audience member is, is is, participating, on the platform.

00:28:22:11 - 00:28:39:20

Jason

So I as I'm learning more about this, I'm going to check out my recent commentary and see how that presents, on the platform. At one point, you guys were using, a tool, and maybe you don't have it anymore. I don't know. I never really used it because honestly, I didn't really fully understand the intent of it.

00:28:39:22 - 00:28:55:01

Jason

And so let's talk about that if you still have it. And that's the, you were doing like, a word cloud of some sort to see what's trending. Are you still doing that? And what's the intent of how, your, you know, best users are taking advantage of that.

00:28:55:03 - 00:29:11:07

Shelby

Yeah, yeah. So we do have that. Still, if you are ever in the opportunity feed, you can search. And there's like a word cloud. There's like journalists who the most active journalist who have been writing in that. And then there's the top publications that have been writing on that, topic in the last 30 days. So it's nice.

00:29:11:07 - 00:29:35:02

Shelby

It's kind of that 30 day overview. I think what's really, helpful, especially from the word cloud perspective, is we get so many people in here where they're like, well, there's just nothing for us in here. And it's like, okay, fair. There might not be, right? Because you might be an expert in something so niche and so specific that when you search that very specific thing that might not be in here.

00:29:35:04 - 00:29:54:06

Shelby

And so when you search that term, giving you that word cloud, it's saying, okay, well, when this topic does come up, it's also associated in these really big areas that we are seeing. And so you know like my favorite example is there's this man named Matt Harris. We love Matt. I quoted. He is like one of our like case studies of all time.

00:29:54:06 - 00:30:13:15

Shelby

And I remember originally getting on a phone with Matt and he was like, yep. So my expertise is I'm a Perl expert. And I was like, I don't know how we're ever going to have opportunities for you like that. But I remember distinctly being like, I'm going to try to help you in in here, but this is so niche that's so specific.

00:30:13:15 - 00:30:30:22

Shelby

I cannot imagine that more than twice a year there's going to be journalists in here looking for Perl experts. And so I was like, okay, well, Matt, like outside of Perl's, you know, you do run your own business and you are a spokesperson and you're and you're doing all of these other things. And so it's like, well, you're an entrepreneur.

00:30:31:01 - 00:30:46:18

Shelby

You're, you know, so it's it's helping to expand. And it's like, well, pearls are adapted into jewelry. And that year happened to be something where they were talking a lot about, it was I think it was the year the Queen died. And so they were talking a lot about like, the Queen's assets and the Queen's jewelry collection.

00:30:46:18 - 00:31:05:17

Shelby

And so we were able to tie that into these other and kind of bigger areas where he can attach it back into his expertise of pearls. But it's not just I'm coming into it every day. I'm searching pearls, saying, oh, you don't have anything and moving on. And so instead he's been quoted, I mean, hundreds of times at this point.

00:31:05:17 - 00:31:32:06

Shelby

He's been in podcast. He's been he had like a ten page addition or like a ten, standing like addition with people magazine that he plays through quoted. And I continue to be like in all of these different, columns throughout. Like it's just been really, really cool to see. But I think that's where we were like, if you don't know this industry well, or even if you were just coming in and you're like, I got a new client and I'm searching, it's like, yeah, it's not going to work for this client.

00:31:32:06 - 00:31:53:06

Shelby

I'm just going to move on. It's like sometimes you have to really rein in your client's expertise, and sometimes you have to really expand that expertise to get placements across the board. So I think that's where we're trying to use those trending topics and those bigger subject areas to get everybody thinking outside of that small little box sometimes.

00:31:53:07 - 00:32:26:15

Jason

So I'm glad you brought this up. Speak to the employee who's working at a corporation in a marketing or perhaps a PR role and or somebody who's managing a client, at an agency where the client says, I only want to talk about pearls. I don't want to be included in anywhere else, only about pearls. What advice might you give to that advisor and or directly to that client, that that spokesperson, to help them kind of expand their thinking and be more open minded to the opportunities?

00:32:26:15 - 00:32:41:11

Jason

Because you're right, they may not be covering this topic and that person probably said to you, I don't think PR or I don't think this platform is going to work for me. And and I think they're missing an opportunity. I think you are too. So how would you manage that situation?

00:32:41:13 - 00:33:04:12

Shelby

Yeah, I mean, some of it's the education across like SEO and Geo. You can get really technical with it right where you're like, hey, I understand that. You think you're you're just trying to get in this article. But on the technical side of things, we're trying to get you as many placements as possible. And so when you look at the reality of how do we get more placements, we have to diversify that expertise a bit.

00:33:04:14 - 00:33:27:19

Shelby

The second thing is going to be the relationship building, because, you know, like Matt in that example did, it's he was helping journalist with very specific jewelry stories and saying like, hey, as a Perl expert working in the jewelry space, this is why I can contribute to this. But then as he's building this relationship and they're like, this guy's great, he's got a lot of really good insights.

00:33:27:21 - 00:33:57:17

Shelby

Matt can now go back to them and pitch his stories, and that's how he's getting in people magazine. Like, they're not they're not coming to him being like, hey, we've got this Perl feature that we're doing, right. He was like, hey, there's this. You know, I talk about pearls more specifically if you guys are interested in. And that's where once you have that, that credibility, that reputation with that journalist, and they know that you were so helpful with these other stories when they were working on a deadline or when they were working in very niche specific spaces that were contributing to your industry.

00:33:57:19 - 00:34:18:13

Shelby

Right? I think that's where it's easier to go back and say yes. Now let's talk about what we want to talk about rather than meeting you where you're at. So, yeah, some of it's just, it it's so easy to be in an industry and forget that, like, not everybody works in your industry every day. You know, it's like I was in the payroll space from us.

00:34:18:13 - 00:34:32:20

Shelby

And I catch myself saying like, oh, you know, I was in the PTO industry. People are like, what's that? And I'm like, how do people not know what that is? Right? And it's like, yeah, because not everybody is living that every day. And so same for a journalist, you know, like there most of them are writing across several industries.

00:34:33:01 - 00:34:55:22

Shelby

And so when they have questions about things or when they are writing stories about things like they don't technically always know the scope of it, they don't know how expansive that can be or how in-depth you can get, or what your specific niche of that industry might be. So helping to educate them on it and giving them ideas outside of that as you help educate them, can be really helpful.

00:34:56:00 - 00:35:22:22

Jason

So two thoughts there. What you're basically saying is Matt became a trusted source by offering his expertise more expansively than he initially wanted to or thought he should. And that began to build a relationship. And that relationship turned into additional earned media because of his willingness to share, care and be part of the conversation and meet a new journalist or contact where they're at.

00:35:23:00 - 00:35:48:18

Jason

And I want to summarize that because in my experience, my best clients are willing to do that, right. They're willing to be helpful when they know it doesn't necessarily pay off for them. I've talked about this example that's a great story. One of my favorite clients was always willing to meet with the journalist. She was in a corporate development marketing type role, but her past background was as a CPA for publicly traded companies.

00:35:48:20 - 00:36:14:06

Jason

Her company was publicly traded that she worked at, and so she was willing to help journalists walk through another company's financial statements, another company's quarterly earnings report, and help educate especially a cub reporter on what this and that means. And, you know, and I was so grateful she was willing to do that because she would spend maybe an hour at a time with a journalist who either she didn't know or hadn't covered them yet or whatever the case might be.

00:36:14:10 - 00:36:34:21

Jason

Shelby and that journalist then began to like her, trust her, and want to come back to her where maybe she could quote, the reporter could quote her on related stories or tangential portions. But when we had a story, they were like, can I talk to Tara? And if the answer was yes, then they would be more inclined to do it.

00:36:34:23 - 00:36:56:23

Jason

And you know, the you know, what's the saying? You know, the best way to have somebody, you know, like you is to ask them to do a favor for you and vice versa, by doing a favor for them. You build that relationship. So I think that's a really, beneficial, you know, way of looking at it. And I was just, you know, and different speaking of, generative, AI engines.

00:36:56:23 - 00:37:19:03

Jason

Right. Each one of them values or credits earned media differently. And so some of them are going to reward a expert on the volume of media coverage where they're mentioned. Some of them are going to reward on the tier of the media coverage that they're that they're mentioned and or others are going to focus on. Are they in the industry trade that they're within?

00:37:19:03 - 00:37:47:01

Jason

So at the end of the day, the best thing to do is to be more expansive and don't say, well, I don't want to do any interviews unless it's, you know, this tier or higher. And oftentimes I find the people who want to focus on the highest tier media are the ones that come from the lowest tier company as far as its own credibility, as far as its own visibility, you know, just because you I mean, you have no employees, but you want to be the go to spokesperson for the Wall Street Journal on this particular topic.

00:37:47:03 - 00:38:04:11

Jason

Kind of a stretch. You know, you've got to build up some some reps and credibility invisibility elsewhere. The other thing I, I just want to say to you, because it resonated with me, is when you tell people about working in the PR space and they don't know what that is. I can't tell you how many times I'm on an airplane or somewhere and somebody says, what do you do for a living?

00:38:04:11 - 00:38:16:12

Jason

I say, I own a PR firm or I own a public relations firm, and then they finally go, and what is that? And I'm like, you don't know what that is like? How do you not know what that is? So it's a constant reminder.

00:38:16:14 - 00:38:19:14

Shelby

Because that's yeah, PR does not mean press release. Yeah.

00:38:19:16 - 00:38:36:18

Jason

Oh thank you. Can let's frame that somewhere because I'm a big believer. But yes, you're right. People don't know what acronyms are and they don't know what our industry, is either. And so as a professional and a unique profession, we constantly have to educate people about that.

00:38:36:19 - 00:38:58:06

Shelby

Yeah. The interesting thing there, with the, the tiers and I'm such a big pusher of this because I, I'll get agencies that say we don't pitch anything less than this or I get, you know agencies say like my client won't be featured anything less than this. And I think such an interesting piece is one. I mean, we just talked about newsrooms shrinking, right.

00:38:58:06 - 00:39:18:15

Shelby

So where are all these journalists who lost their jobs going to like they've got to be writing somewhere. They're still they're still in the industry. But also there has been a huge tick up in the number of freelance reporters. And what that means is you have journalists writing across all tiers of publications now, rather than just writing in-house for the Wall Street Journal.

00:39:18:15 - 00:39:41:12

Shelby

So even though that journalist is maybe writing for two weeks from today or something that, you know is maybe not the brightest, shiniest thing you want to share on your LinkedIn, they're so grateful for you meeting them at that low tier, because then when they do have the top tier opportunity in your in their inbox, again, they're going to be really grateful that you help them out for the the not so flashy publication.

00:39:41:12 - 00:40:03:08

Shelby

Yeah. And so I think so many journalists, you know, I have journalists in here sometimes with like, hey, I'm, I'm writing for like this is for the New York Times today, but I just know people are only going to pitch me because it's New York Times, so I'm just going to put freelance on it and so it's it's a lot about researching your journalists and understanding who do they write for, because it could be a much bigger story than you even anticipate.

00:40:03:14 - 00:40:13:16

Shelby

They just are trying to hone in on the traffic and the people who are there for the right reasons of like putting out credible information. And not just I'm here just to pace you because I need to be in the New York Times.

00:40:13:16 - 00:40:42:02

Jason

Yeah, well, I'm going to support what you just said with this. We had a client once featured in the, his product featured in the, Daytona, daily newspaper, the Daytona News Journal, I believe it's called. And a reporter at the Orlando Sentinel, read that newspaper or saw the article or whatever it might be. And then he wrote a story, his own story about that same product.

00:40:42:04 - 00:41:10:09

Jason

And then from there, the Tampa Bay times, journalist saw the Orlando Sentinel's article and wrote about the product from there. Now, before social media, we would have said this. This is, you know, this is viral, right? This is going viral through news coverage. Right? And, this story was after social media, of course. But my point is, so it went from Daytona, which most people would say, you know, that's a low tier, you know, media outlet and a small market.

00:41:10:14 - 00:41:31:14

Jason

But then it up, it upscaled to, you know, went up to Orlando, then it went up to Tampa from that Tampa story, the LA times picked it up. They saw it in the in the Tampa, you know, newspaper. So then the LA times wrote about it. And from that ABC in New York City saw it. And ABC in New York City did a national story for it.

00:41:31:16 - 00:41:54:07

Jason

And then from there, they pushed it out to all of their 250 network affiliates at the time across the United States. So one pitch in the backyard of where our client was based, right, to tell his story of innovation and entrepreneurial, and, and product development turned into this viral moment that it just went all, you know, up uphill, if you will.

00:41:54:13 - 00:42:16:01

Jason

Now, if that client would have been, you know, either arrogant or just uncooperative or unwilling to invest in the process, would have said no to that story. Would we have gotten the traction that we got from that? I don't know. The other thing I would say to support what you're saying is, you know, that cub reporter has to start somewhere, right?

00:42:16:07 - 00:42:37:14

Jason

And if they're good and they get good stories and they tell good stories and they get connected to prominent individuals, then it's going to keep going up from there. The the only thing I would just, caution people about that is like, we have a client in Tampa and he's just buddy buddy with the hometown newspaper business editor where he lives.

00:42:37:14 - 00:43:12:19

Jason

So suburban Tampa has a weekly newspaper, and he likes the business idea there. And I keep telling him, I'm like, we cannot go to that guy first and tell him your big story first. Like, we have to take it somewhere else and get it covered. You know, we're talking like national news, right? And so if the local community writer and I won't say the name of the publication, the business editor covers the story before, you know, the Tampa Bay, times does, or a bigger outlet does, because this guy's been quoted many times, our client, we've had him quoted in the Wall Street Journal, but he's always wanted to give an exclusive to his.

00:43:12:22 - 00:43:28:19

Jason

You know, the guy he likes that's down the road. And I'm like, the guy you like down the road can wait three weeks, you know. Yeah. So but so you have to kind of think about it that way too. If you have something you know is good, you know, go straight to the best outlet you can probably.

00:43:28:23 - 00:43:55:04

Jason

But if you're building a brand and visibility for yourself, you've got to start slow. And just another little quick anecdote is we have a new client who's based in Orlando. They only serve the Orlando metro market. And we're like, that's going to be small and tight, right? So and Orlando is a competitive media market just like our clients in Atlanta experience in New York and Houston and other places, San Francisco, LA.

00:43:55:06 - 00:44:21:17

Jason

So we've said to her, look, it would actually be easier for us to get you quoted in national media than to wait until the Orlando media market is going to cover the type of story that you're an expert in. And so jury's still out. I don't know, I'm not involved in the account, but I just remember hearing this conversation like, we've got to persuade her that even though she might not immediately benefit from national media as much as she would something in her own backyard, right.

00:44:21:17 - 00:44:43:16

Jason

We've got to build her trust and visibility and credibility where we can, and there's no reason Shelby is, you know, that she can't remarket and repurpose this content on her own social, her blog or website, email blasts, etc. and then when the Orlando media sees that she's cited and quoted in national media, then that will build up her credibility.

00:44:43:16 - 00:44:48:01

Jason

So when they are covering the story, she'll stand out a little bit more from them.

00:44:48:02 - 00:44:48:09

Jason

Yeah.

00:44:48:11 - 00:44:55:15

Shelby

Yeah yeah. Please, please remarket the coverage please. That's, that's my take away from the last thing you just said.

00:44:55:17 - 00:44:55:22

Jason

Yeah.

00:44:55:22 - 00:45:12:11

Shelby

So many people don't do that. They're like oh great I got featured and that's it. And it's like what we, we we can repurpose this in so many ways and please do that. That's only going to improve the ranking. It's only going to prove the eyes on it. Yep. Only the journalist is going to be so grateful. Yeah we can.

00:45:12:12 - 00:45:16:02

Shelby

That does not happen. Probably I would say eight times out of ten.

00:45:16:04 - 00:45:35:03

Jason

We could have a client featured or quoted or mentioned in the Wall Street Journal or New York Times, whatever it might be, maybe even CNBC and the number of their friends, families and neighbors and and contacts that we'll see. It is so small, even though millions of people saw it, it might not be the people that are connected to them.

00:45:35:05 - 00:45:55:00

Jason

But we get them in that hometown newspaper, like I was describing just a minute ago, and all their friends at the golf course, country club, Rotary Club, neighbors, family, kids, you know, whatever it might be, people at the grocery store, we'll see them and they'll be like, man, that really worked. And it's like, yeah, it worked. Now.

00:45:55:00 - 00:46:22:00

Jason

No doubt about it. Right? And so what I tell my team and our clients, if they're open to hearing it, we want to spend 5 to 10% of your PR investment. That's for media relations going after the stuff that will be seen in your neighborhood or in the hometown where your company is based, because that's going to be the the boost, of your anecdotal experience that tells you the power of media coverage and the power, the visibility that's there.

00:46:22:02 - 00:46:36:21

Jason

Now, most clients will say, oh, I only want national tier one media. And I tell them, well, that's not who's always going to buy from you. And that's not always who's going to support what you're doing. As much as the industry trades will, or the consumer enthusiasts that are more micro and niche focused?

00:46:36:23 - 00:46:46:09

Jason

This episode is brought to you by Audible. Enjoy 30 days free of Audible Premium Plus by going to ontopofpr.com/audible.

00:46:46:10 - 00:47:10:15

Announcer

You're listening to On Top of PR with your host, Jason Mudd. Jason is a trusted advisor to some of America's most admired and fastest growing brands. He is the managing partner at Axia Public Relations, a PR agency that guides news, social and web strategies for national companies. And now, back to the show.

00:47:10:17 - 00:47:15:18

Jason

So let's pivot now. Let's talk about, your your research that you did.

00:47:15:20 - 00:47:35:03

Shelby

Yeah. Yeah I know. So we mentioned the, pitch timing obviously that one big aspect of it, another piece is the volume of pitches. And I know as you guys, as paid subscribers, when you go into to pitch, you can see the number of pitches that you're essentially competing against before, okay, yours.

00:47:35:04 - 00:47:36:14

Jason

That's a paid feature.

00:47:36:16 - 00:48:00:05

Shelby

Yeah. And you can see it on the free version. You can see it after. But it's kind of discouraging because you're like, oh, I just sent that. And there was already 20 pitches there or whatever. Yep. So what we were trying to determine is what's the the journalist threshold for how many pitches are willing to receive or this to their inbox before they start to kind of that and verify those pitches.

00:48:00:07 - 00:48:28:09

Shelby

Okay. I was pleasantly surprised by this. And maybe not. Maybe it's not so pleasant. Maybe it's probably speaks to a couple of things. So what we've seen is that average ratio for when a journalist and quoted will go in and say, I have what I need for this story that's gone up from last year. It was so it's it's 7.6% or 7.6 pitches right now in that percent, but 7.6 pitches on average is when a journalist will say, I got what I needed for this story.

00:48:28:10 - 00:48:44:10

Shelby

Prior year it was five and the prior year format, it was like four. So that threshold has gone up. And so I think it tells us a few things, right? One, there's probably more pitches out there, but there's probably more junk that's being pitched.

00:48:44:12 - 00:48:45:03

Jason

Okay.

00:48:45:05 - 00:49:07:08

Shelby

There's a media pitch slot. Yeah. There's so many people that are not mindful or cognizant of what a journalist needs and what they're working against, and they're just kind of spraying and praying all day long and just saying, like, hey, my client's available. And it's like, why would why would anybody respond to you? And I want to turn around sometimes and send that pitch to their client and be like, look how these guys are representing you.

00:49:07:08 - 00:49:27:22

Shelby

It's your behavior. Yeah, it's hurting your reputation and theirs. But I'm not here to be anybody's mom. That's, but then on the flip side, I think it also tells us that now a journalist has to take a lot more into account when they're cross comparing pitches from one another for the content with what do I feel comfortable using in my story?

00:49:28:00 - 00:49:46:05

Shelby

They're looking at, they want to look at more. They want to say like, okay, how can I for sure tell that these people are real? How can I for sure see that this is not I or slop like you said? How can I, compare the bullet points that I received and are all the bullet points and every single pitch that I receive the same?

00:49:46:05 - 00:50:00:01

Shelby

And do all of them say 100% I because I'm not going to use those, you know, like it's. Yeah, it's all like I in like just using AI to come up with your responses is an it's an echo chamber, you know, like that's just scraping.

00:50:00:02 - 00:50:35:07

Jason

You see that. Do you see that on your end that the pitches are the same, the content is the same? I wonder if that's because they're using, a free accounts. B they haven't trained the, the AI to their voice and, you know, created a custom GPT, which we do for all of our clients. We create a custom GPT, and then, and then I also wonder if it's because, you know, most people are still using and there's nothing wrong with that, but ChatGPT as opposed to using, you know, clod or other platforms, that perplexity that might produce a different outcome.

00:50:35:07 - 00:50:37:04

Jason

But that's, that's interesting. Yeah.

00:50:37:06 - 00:51:02:22

Shelby

I also think it's just there's not I think you can tell when when you say like, hey, here's my thoughts. Can you put this in my tone of voice? Can you write it this way? Can you? And you have a coached LM versus somebody who's like, hey, give me give me the five bullet points for this. And it's like the one example I have is, it was a bathroom opportunity where it was like, what are the four lowest cost?

00:51:02:22 - 00:51:19:12

Shelby

Like quick and easy changes you can create, like add to a bathroom as like a renovation that are like that, make it feel more homey or something like that. Like it was very just like it was a, just like an interior design opportunity. And there was five pitches in there. There was more than five pitches, but there was.

00:51:19:12 - 00:51:34:16

Shelby

We went through and we combed out. The journalists had pointed it out to us, and she's like, they are five pitches in here that all have the same exact four bullet points. While they all sound different, right? Because they have different language, they have different, but their bullet points are exactly the same. And like some of them. Right.

00:51:34:16 - 00:51:55:16

Shelby

Like change the hardware. Sure. Like I'm sure a couple of other pitches had change the hardware, change the sync saying, you know, do these things. But what all five of them had was the last bullet point. It said, hang a sprig of eucalyptus on your showerhead. It's going to give a nice earthy, homey feel. And it's like, that's odd one.

00:51:55:16 - 00:52:20:04

Shelby

Like, how many bathrooms has anybody been in there? There's a sprig of eucalyptus on somebody's like, showerhead. That's not really a renovation. That's like a touch up or like a decorating thing. And so it was just so interesting that all five of them had that. And so what I did was I took the same prompt, plugged it into ChatGPT, and sure enough, it gave me the same four look at the back with a sprig of eucalyptus and it just put it in my voice.

00:52:20:04 - 00:52:45:04

Shelby

So it's the same pitch. It's just the generic like written in my voice, but it's generic and it's not, you know, it's not these new original thoughts. And that's because these lines, they don't have original thoughts. Like, that's what the journalist needs is something that stands out and it's not generic. Like if they want a generic stuff, they could go search it on an LMN too and then say like, hey, can somebody add to these other generic ideas I had?

00:52:45:04 - 00:53:06:02

Shelby

So it's we we met with gab for a couple of weeks ago, and she's amazing in the AI space right now. I think, especially as it relates to comms professionals and just really helping comms professionals coach and train their LMS. Because a lot of it, I do think is a lack of just education on it and how your pitches work.

00:53:06:04 - 00:53:32:21

Shelby

But she's like, put diamonds in, get diamonds out. You know, like it's not junk and junk out. It's also put diamonds in. So put some original thought and ideas in there and then have I poke holes in it. You know, have I rewrite it for clarity but not change the tone of voice, not make it sound so generic and but like, have those original ideas still and those pitches are going to stand out where I think even if that shows 80% I but it's completely different.

00:53:32:21 - 00:53:41:22

Shelby

An original thought, a journalist wouldn't even look at the AI detector was going to say this pitch looks different, like it's a different thoughts compared to everybody else.

00:53:42:00 - 00:53:43:11

Jason

Yeah, I like that, I like that,

00:53:43:16 - 00:53:56:22

Jason

well, Shelby, one thing I want to do is kind of educate our audience for a minute, because you talked earlier and I might have missed my opportunity to mention this, but you said, you know, and, 7.6 pitches, five pitches for pitches.

00:53:57:00 - 00:54:13:22

Jason

I think it's important to educate our audience that, you know, good journalism. The standard is still, although not as honored as it used to be, a mandate of having three unique sources for every story that you write. So it makes sense that, you know, maybe they were looking for four and then five, and now they're getting up to eight.

00:54:14:00 - 00:54:38:15

Jason

And the key thing, you said it and I think it's so true, they're looking for three sources. The way you stand out as a source is to have a unique point of view from what everybody else is saying, and not just regurgitating what ChatGPT says. You should say. Right. And so I heard you say, this idea of putting in your thoughts, or collecting your thoughts put into your point of view, your tone, your voice, and then ultimately produce a better, you know, more unique pitch.

00:54:38:15 - 00:54:55:06

Jason

So I tell clients all the time, you want to be early, you want to be say something provocative and unique so that you're one of the three sources they use because of all the sources they talk to. You say the same thing. It's like a lottery, you know, it's a it's a, what do you call a random drawing who they decide to include.

00:54:55:06 - 00:55:18:21

Jason

And it might just be the first three people they heard from might be somebody they heard first, middle and last. But you want to make sure you get in their inbox early with your response. And, something I'd like you to talk a little bit about, is diversity. I tell clients that diversity is important to, you know, many would say that it's no longer, the same level of criteria it once was.

00:55:18:23 - 00:55:39:07

Jason

Based on the political environment we're in today. But diversity is still good storytelling. It's good journalism. It's good to hear diverse point of views. I look to hire, you know, diverse expertise and experience at my agency. And if people in the room all look like you, you're not going to hear as good or thoughtful storytelling and insights as you might want.

00:55:39:07 - 00:55:59:09

Jason

So when we talk to clients, we talk about the importance of, diversity of experts and spokespersons. If they're all, you know, white, middle age or older males, you know, you won't be as competitive for the media opportunities where again, they if they're picking three sources, you want to make sure you're saying something so interesting, you get quoted no matter what.

00:55:59:11 - 00:56:10:18

Jason

But if all things are equal, they're going to look to have diversity of geography, ethnicity, gender and other things in their article. So you have some data points about this.

00:56:10:19 - 00:56:29:21

Shelby

Yeah. Yeah, we've definitely seen I mean, of course, in 2025, at the beginning of the year, there was a huge uptick in conversations around Dei, but that was also what was happening in the the political environment. And so we saw we saw a drop off in the Dei kind of tags. Everything over the course of the year.

00:56:29:21 - 00:56:54:12

Shelby

But that's because it did have a sharp uptick at some point. But then what we started to see is that when journalists are posting request in quoted, we're seeing that there's a significant increase in their demand specifically asking for a type of audience. So rather than just saying like, hey, this is open to everybody to pitch, they're saying like, hey, specifically for this request, I want a Bipoc individual.

00:56:54:12 - 00:57:31:10

Shelby

I wanted a member of the LGBTQ community. I want a female. I want woman entrepreneur. I so you're you're continuing to see these more diverse tags where they're saying, like, specifically for this, I want these individuals to contribute, you know, and that's not to say like, oh, hey, you know, only pitch you know, your, your female experts or something like that, but it is to say, like, you should have a diversity and like the, the spokespeople that you have available within your brand or your company, because they do like you said, they offer different opinions.

00:57:31:10 - 00:57:39:21

Shelby

And I think it helps make a more well-rounded story for what journalists are looking at. When we look at and I can share my screen too, with you.

00:57:39:23 - 00:57:40:18

Jason

And

00:57:40:19 - 00:58:03:02

Jason

while you're doing that, you know, good journalism is not just talking to people on a national story that are from the state of Missouri. Right? You want to diversify, who you're talking to geographically. If you're running for a political office at a national level, let's say you're running for president. You're not going to pick a vice president who's from your state or the neighboring state, even though that might be the best person you know for the job.

00:58:03:04 - 00:58:10:09

Jason

You need to be inclusive of other markets. And that's what good storytelling is. And so I see you've got the slide up here.

00:58:10:11 - 00:58:45:00

Shelby

Yeah. Yeah. So this just shows, you know, over the last two years going up until like July ish of last year, where we're seeing that continued uptick in the demand for different individuals for stories. And so that's where, like I said, in the request itself, the journalist is saying, please have a person from this group respond like, I want to hear from these, these different, like kind of, diversity groups and hear these different, connections and individuals, if we just look at it from a gender perspective.

00:58:45:02 - 00:59:12:18

Shelby

So this is male versus females being pitched inside of quoted. So for every opportunity, this kind of just shows us that, you know, over the last two years, males here are the orange line. So we've always seen that males have been pitched more frequently than females within the platform. Over the last year, we've seen a greater disparity in that, where we're seeing that even more now, male voices are being pitched more than female voices.

00:59:12:18 - 00:59:35:13

Shelby

So this is almost like a 2 to 1. So every two men in your inbox, you only have like one female voice. But like we said, journalists need to have a more well-rounded story. So when we look at this from the success metrics, it flips the scales. It's saying, even though that the the males are being pitched more frequently, the female voices win more often.

00:59:35:13 - 01:00:09:08

Shelby

So we see higher response rates, higher engagement rates because there's less female voices in the inbox. And it's helping to drive up that success because the journalists are seeing a new, unique, more diverse voice there. So, so yeah, like I said, this isn't saying like, hey, you only pitch your, your female sources and representatives, but I think when you are coming across opportunities, I think it's it does help to be able to put different feet forward for different types of opportunities and kind of change your voices and make your pitches more well-rounded.

01:00:09:10 - 01:00:26:18

Shelby

It's definitely, not something we see changing anytime soon. And I think we just continue to see a greater demand for journalists just saying it up like, hey, I, I already have five male voices for this story. So now I'm putting out the request to say I need a female voice or I need a, an LGBTQ member or something like that.

01:00:26:18 - 01:00:44:14

Shelby

So, yeah, continuing to see that drive up is, I think it's really positive. And, you know, some people find it frustrating because they're like, well, you know, I have a perfect horse for this, but he has a following to that community and it's like, yeah, right. The journalist has plenty of sources from that community right now, so save it for the next one, you know.

01:00:44:16 - 01:01:00:00

Jason

Or just make your pitch better. You know, because it is a competition. And so if you're going to be competitive, if you want to be in that key media outlet or any media outlet, you want to bring your best work or just don't do it, you know, if you don't have the time to do it right and then don't do it at all.

01:01:00:02 - 01:01:21:11

Jason

Thinking about those charts you showed and I will request other to embed them into our episode notes, where we'll put a link to, your, your, your study if we can get that. And the other, you know, brand names that we mentioned that somebody might want to look into, we'll put those in the episode notes, which will be available on top of Procom slash Shelly Dash bridges.

01:01:21:12 - 01:01:40:19

Jason

If anybody wants to jump in there and check it out right away. But looking at the chart you showed, where it kind of followed, it looked like, you know, more, responses or more, coverage. I'm also gathering that you probably put some sort of line graph in there that would show the growth of your platform.

01:01:40:19 - 01:02:00:03

Jason

That would kind of be on the increase, just like that chart was. Right? I mean, meaning that's a reasonable assumption that, you know, as, as you were showing the chart going up in a very positive way. As far as, the direction of growth, you know, your company's market share probably, and number of users probably increased equally.

01:02:00:05 - 01:02:12:19

Jason

Yeah. And and then there was another chart in there that you had the second chart. And unfortunately, now I'm forgetting, because I don't see it in front of me, but I also had another thought there as well. Can you put that back up real quick?

01:02:12:21 - 01:02:14:00

Jason

But like I said earlier,

01:02:14:05 - 01:02:17:17

Jason

if you're listening to this and you have, you know, somebody who's not very diverse

01:02:17:19 - 01:02:21:07

Jason

as a spokesperson doesn't mean you still don't want to include them.

01:02:21:07 - 01:02:28:00

Jason

So, Yeah. So I was looking at this kind of for that dip that you mentioned. And it looks

01:02:28:00 - 01:02:37:02

Jason

like the dip happened according to what I'm seeing. You know, before January 2025. And then kind of picked up a little bit. Yeah. And.

01:02:37:05 - 01:02:51:01

Shelby

See here is in January of 2025. That's kind of where this well, a little bit before back in like October 2024 is where we started to see this spread or greater disparity of just the genders.

01:02:51:03 - 01:03:07:12

Jason

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so this is the one I was thinking of, you know your market share, your customer base you know is probably increased. If you put a line in there you probably see where it's also going up in a, in, in a an increasing direction. And then was there a third slide?

01:03:07:12 - 01:03:08:18

Jason

You also showed.

01:03:08:19 - 01:03:11:10

Shelby

Yep. And that's the, the success rates here.

01:03:11:12 - 01:03:38:04

Jason

Yeah. Yeah. So that was interesting to me. Also, just kind of looking at you know overall the success rates are decreasing, which again I think shows like you said they're accepting more pitches. Number one. Right. Because you shared that data point earlier. Number two, your market share is growing of people that are on the platform. So I think a lot of that is, you know, very, interesting kind of thoughts to consider.

01:03:38:04 - 01:03:57:12

Jason

So I'm glad we spent some time looking at this. And like I said, if you're listening to this on the audio edition of our show, you can certainly go to Axia Park. Excuse me, on top of Pre-comp Shelly Bridges. And we'll put the images there, for you to be able to see those there and kind of catch up to what the video version is sharing.

01:03:57:14 - 01:04:04:18

Jason

Show me what other, high level thoughts do we need to know about from your, data?

01:04:04:20 - 01:04:06:09

Jason

Gosh.

01:04:06:11 - 01:04:37:02

Shelby

I mean, those were the those are the biggest pieces. Trying to think. You know, we have certainly seen a shift from. I think, you know, this is just in the industry in general, not so much even quoted at just the shift in independent or like two independent outlets and the growth in independent outlets. So, you know, less traditional media, we know that like, you know, look at what was that February Washington Post laid off, you know, hundreds of individuals.

01:04:37:02 - 01:04:58:07

Shelby

So you see these larger traditional newsrooms really shrinking and downsizing, but like I said, those journalists still need jobs. So you see a lot of those people shifting to in-house comms teams. You see a lot of those individuals shifting to freelance work and writing across multiple publications. But then you see a huge growth in Substack, in YouTube. Yep.

01:04:58:09 - 01:05:18:14

Shelby

Yeah. You see? Yeah. Like a lot of, smaller, you know, more trade publications, things like that, really bringing on like in-house editors, which I think is, is great to see that shift. And like, I said, keeping your your options open when you are pitching, I think it does greatly benefit you because many journalists now are not writing for one outlet.

01:05:18:14 - 01:05:48:19

Shelby

They're writing for many. So even if you are pitching them at a small publication right now, you can also catch them at the big publication when they really need help, too. And they're going to be grateful for you no matter what time your your pitching them up. So, yeah, it's a significant shift there. I think it's about a lot about shifting the mindset, because even though we've seen a shift where we see more independent outlets kind of posting opportunities, needing sources and being available and, you know, like how many podcasts are out there now and things like that.

01:05:48:21 - 01:06:12:21

Shelby

Even though we see that shift there, we still see that more pitches go to those traditional outlets. So that just means when you are pitching a New York Times opportunity, you're you're one against many versus when you're pitching, you know, something that's maybe a little bit smaller, maybe not as flashy. Your success rate is likely higher because it is, you're not there's not as many people in there.

01:06:12:21 - 01:06:27:07

Shelby

You're not competing against one or 50 or 60. You know, there's people that are just pitching it because it is the New York Times. Or you're not kind of competing against all the the other, experts and big brands in those spaces, because that's what everybody's kind of vying for.

01:06:27:08 - 01:07:02:23

Jason

We're all curious to see what the future holds. And in ten years from now, you know, will people even be discerning about what the New York Times or Wall Street Journal is covering, as opposed to what, you know, their favorite content creator, influencer, or, you know, other platform that has yet to come out. Or maybe it'll all be mostly, you know, an AI aggregation of some sort where, you know, maybe there's not the same, you know, sole source of truth or credible media outlet versus, you know, a variety of, I don't know, bot reporting that happens or something like that, you know, who knows what the future is going to be like.

01:07:02:23 - 01:07:26:21

Jason

But, you know, I know my kids aren't aware or interested in, you know, and they're young adults, and, you know, Wall Street Journal, New York Times, and the things that, you know, when I grew up was what my parents and grandparents or business people that were older than me really cared about. Is this diversity? And, you know, fragmentation of the marketplace of, of news consumption.

01:07:26:21 - 01:07:43:18

Jason

So it's all going to be an interesting are we are living in interesting times. This was a great conversation, Shelby. As always, I learned something every time I talk to you. And so I'm glad we got connected today. And, thank you for helping our audience stay on top of PR.

01:07:43:20 - 01:07:48:05

Shelby

Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. This is really great. Glad I was able to make it happen.

01:07:48:07 - 01:07:52:01

Jason

Yeah, it was great. Glad to do it. Let's make sure we do it again soon.

01:07:52:02 - 01:07:53:03

Shelby

Yeah. Deal.

01:07:53:05 - 01:08:20:07

Jason

All right. Thank you to our audience for all your support of On Top of PR, which is now one of the top 2.5%, a podcast worldwide. If you would take a moment to leave us an online review, especially if you enjoyed this or another episode, we'd love to have you share your thoughts on our show so that you can help others become aware of our program and have them tune in to on top of PR so we can continue to help them stay on top of PR. Thanks again Shelby.

Shelby

Thank you.

01:08:20:09 - 01:08:32:17

Announcer

This has been On Top of PR with Jason Mudd presented by ReviewMaxer. Be sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode, and check out past episodes at ontopofpr.com.

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