In this episode, Shelley Spector, founder and CEO of the Museum of Public Relations, joins host Jason Mudd to share what PR pioneers can still teach today’s communicators.
Tune in to learn more!
Watch the episode here:
Meet our guest:
Our guest is Shelley Spector, founder and CEO of the Museum of Public Relations. Located in New York, the museum houses more than 5,100 artifacts that chronicle PR history. Its AI-powered personas let you talk with PR pioneers in their own voices.
5 things you’ll learn during the full episode:
- What public relations originally meant and why the definition still matters
- Why every strong PR program starts with research on your publics
- How Ivy Lee, Edward Bernays, and Arthur Page shaped the PR profession
- Why foundational PR principles get lost in the social media and AI era
- How AI personas of PR pioneers help you brainstorm big ideas, get crisis advice, and pressure-test campaigns
Listen to the episode here:
Quotables
- "The original usage is creating good relationships with all your publics." — Shelley Spector
- "A very good PR program always starts with doing research." — Shelley Spector
- "In my experience, clients want earned media. Clients want good, old-fashioned media relations." — Shelley Spector
- “Instead of jumping to Instagram or TikTok, ask: What does the research say? What’s the strategy? What do we want for the objectives?” — Shelley Spector
- “It’s time we put relationships back in public relations.” — Jason Mudd
If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to share it with a colleague or friend. You may also support us through Buy Me a Coffee or by leaving us a quick podcast review.
Resources
Guest’s contact info and resources:
- Shelley Spector on LinkedIn
- Museum of Public Relations website
- Ask Eddie: Talk with the AI persona of Edward Bernays
- Plan your visit to the Museum of Public Relations
- Book: Always Live Better Than Your Clients
Additional Resources:
- Blog Post: What should I know about media relations and earned media coverage before hiring a PR firm?
- Blog Post: Question-based crisis communication: What leaders miss online
- Blog Post: How to develop buyer personas and avatars
If you like this episode, you're going to love this:
- Leveraging market insights to shape PR strategy
- What you should know about earning media coverage
- One brand, four generations: Why trust doesn't transfer
Recorded: Oct. 13, 2026
About your host Jason Mudd
Jason Mudd is a nationally recognized public relations expert featured by CNN, Entrepreneur, Forbes, NPR, The New York Times, PRWeek, and The Wall Street Journal.
Named North America’s top PR leader by the World Communication Forum, he serves as Partner of Axia Public Relations — recognized by Forbes as one of America’s Best PR Agencies.
Jason has advised some of the country’s most admired and fastest-growing companies, leading campaigns for iconic brands including American Airlines, Budweiser, Dave & Buster’s, GE, H&R Block, Hilton, HP, Miller Lite, New York Life, Pizza Hut, Southern Comfort, and Verizon.
He’s also a professional public speaker, accredited PR practitioner, published author, entrepreneur, and host of On Top of PR with Jason Mudd — a podcast ranked among the top 2.5% globally by Listen Notes and a top 100 marketing podcast on Apple Podcasts. His guests have included leaders from Disney, Microsoft, Southwest Airlines, and Wells Fargo. Learn more about Jason at https://www.axiapr.com/team/
Find more On Top of PR episodes on:
Transcript
Episode Transcript
[00:00 - 00:35]
Shelley Spector:
Bernays
he was the first person to create the phrase public relations counselor. And what public relations means, and it still does a hundred years later, relating to the public or trying to create relationships with all of your publics. So today we use it the wrong way.
we use it as a verb, let's or as a noun or or even as an adjective. But we forget that the original usage is creating good relationships with all your publics.
[00:35 - 01:08]
Jason Mudd:
Hello and welcome to On Top of PR. I'm your host Jason Mudd with Axia Public Relations. And today I'm joined by Shelly Spector. She is the founder and CEO of the Museum of Public Relations, the world's only museum dedicated to the PR profession. The museum housed more than 5,000 artifacts chronicling PR history and its AI-powered personas lets visitors talk with PR pioneers in their own voices.
Our topic today is what PR's pioneers teach today's communicators. Shelly, welcome to On Top of PR.
[01:08 - 01:10]
Shelley Spector:
Thanks so much, Jason. It's wonderful to be here today.
[01:10 - 01:21]
Jason Mudd:
I'm really glad to have you here as well. So I want to start off by just learning how and what made you decide to found the Museum of Public Relations.
[01:21 - 01:23]
Shelley Spector:
I had no idea you were gonna ask me that. No, I'm kidding.
[01:23 - 01:25]
Jason Mudd:
Yeah.
[01:25 - 02:09]
Shelley Spector:
through an accidental meeting with Edward Bernays back when we were both doing seminars for NYU in 1985. I know it sounds so long ago, it was actually 41 years ago, believe it or not. And I was just remarkable meeting this man. He was then 94, almost 95, and
My soon to be husband and I went out to dinner with him at the Waldorf, which I knew had been one of his clients, and where he and his wife, Doris, had spent their wedding night. And I knew that that hotel meant a lot to him. And so we went to dinner with with him. And it was just remarkable. for four hours he spoke and he can do that even today. While he's not alive, he can speak for hours at time.
[02:09 - 02:10]
Jason Mudd:
No.
[02:10 - 02:40]
Shelley Spector:
We had to put an
an actually an artist artificial stop at the end of him over a certain period of time. Anyway, we found him so interesting that that spring we decided to go up to his house in Cambridge, Massachusetts with an old camcorder, which was one of the first portable video cameras, and started what turned out to be nine and a half years of video recordings of Eddie.
And
at the end of his life, which was a age a hundred and three and a half.
[02:40 - 02:41]
Jason Mudd:
Mm, wow.
[02:41 - 03:52]
Shelley Spector:
His family let us take all the material from his house, the artifacts, everything that the Library of Congress did not want. And so you can imagine we just loaded up the truck with everything, including his oil portrait, lots of books, lots of papers, photographs. Amazing. And he had wanted to start a museum in his house, like his uncle.
His double uncle Sigmund Freud had done in London after he had died. His family did it for him. He wanted the same sort of thing, but I told him, Eddie, people are not gonna come up to a museum of public relations up in Massachusetts. So I said, I'll make a museum in New York, a museum of public relations. So we started off with his stuff, and then we started adding more and more things.
So the biographer of Ivy Lee heard we had done this and sent us all his research materials on Ivy Lee and the Finn family sent us stuff, the Edelman family, Burson family, and eventually we had fifty one hundred different artifacts here.
[03:52 - 04:02]
Jason Mudd:
Wow. So is this your own private endeavor or some of these organization are these families, you know, contributing towards the cause or how tell me how all that got started.
[04:02 - 04:08]
Shelley Spector:
Okay, so in twenty twelve we became a 501 nonprofit
[04:08 - 04:09]
Jason Mudd:
Okay.
45:
[04:09 - 04:10]
Shelley Spector:
educational institution.
[04:10 - 04:11]
Jason Mudd:
Mm-hmm.
[04:11 - 04:22]
Shelley Spector:
So we live on donations, sponsorships, underwritings. we have 34 trustees who each contribute a certain amount every year and who guide us along the way. And
[04:22 - 04:25]
Jason Mudd:
Mm-hmm.
[04:25 - 04:36]
Shelley Spector:
we are self-sufficient, independent, and
We serve the interests of the PR profession, both the educational community and the professional community.
[04:36 - 04:58]
Jason Mudd:
Okay. Lovely. Wonderful. and I think for our audience, because they may not be aware, you know, you name dropped Edward Bernay, and and and we're gonna talk about a couple other people that you have resurrected through their AI persona, if you will. but you know, I'm gonna guess that, a fair amount of our audience doesn't know who Edward Bernays is. So maybe you could give us like a a a brief summary of of of him and his career.
[04:58 - 05:58]
Shelley Spector:
Bernays
was in the early teens, a publicity agent, you would call him. He was in the beginning of World War I. He was hired to do public relations for the U.S. during the war effort, helped write the press release that went out after the Treaty of Versailles, counseled President Wilson, etc. He came back to New York.
And in 1919, open a public relations firm. Now, back then, he wasn't the only person doing this, but he was the first person to create the phrase public relations counselor. And what public relations means, and it still does a hundred years later, relating to the public or trying to create relationships with all of your publics. So today we use it the wrong way.
we use it as a verb, let's or as a noun or or even as an adjective. But we forget that the original usage is creating good relationships with all your publics.
[05:58 - 06:24]
Jason Mudd:
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I've been known to say on this podcast several times, it's time we put relationships back in public relations. So many times people first think of it as either what people might call publicity or getting media coverage, or it's image and reputation management through crisis situation or you know, covering up a crisis. And I think those that work in the profession realize that one, PR is so much more, and two, you know, ideally that's not where your PR program gets started, right?
[06:24 - 06:32]
Shelley Spector:
Well,
exactly. Exactly. And if you and if you talk to this is why it's so important to log into Eddie, is
[06:32 - 06:32]
Jason Mudd:
Mm-hmm.
[06:32 - 07:12]
Shelley Spector:
that he will tell you the very basics, the fundamentals of a very good PR program, which always starts with doing research. Now think of it back in his day in the nineteen twenties, you didn't have Gallup, you didn't have SurveyMonkey, right? You didn't have any of these big polling companies.
But he would actually write to people or write to authorities to go ahead and poll their audiences. And so he never went into a PR program without first knowing who the public was that he needed to reach, what motivated them, and what kind of behaviors he wanted them to have.
[07:12 - 07:25]
Jason Mudd:
Mm-hmm. Right, right. Well, we want to mention, I think briefly as well, just so everybody's on the same page, your background on who is Ivy Lee, who is Arthur W. Page, and who is Walter Lippmann. Let's knock that
[07:25 - 07:25]
Shelley Spector:
Okay.
[07:25 - 07:26]
Jason Mudd:
out.
[07:26 - 07:32]
Shelley Spector:
All right, sure. Ivy Lear actually started in PR, as we call it today, in
[07:32 - 07:32]
Jason Mudd:
Mm-hmm.
[07:32 - 08:31]
Shelley Spector:
the late eighteen hundreds, working for John D. Rockefeller and also working for Pennsylvania Railroad. Now he had been a New York Times reporter, so he knew something about how to make news, how to write news. And in working with the Pennsylvania Railroad, he witnessed one of the trains.
derailing down in Atlantic City. And the officers of the company said, Well, you can't tell anybody about this. Don't let the press in. Don't let anyone take photos. This is 1904. And Ivy Lee, in you know, it's still the Gilded Age. You had, you know, Vanderbilt saying, the people, the people be damned. People were not, you know, didn't nobody cared about them. And or that
much less to talk to them and to try to explain a company crisis to them. But Ivy Lee explained to the officers and essentially his client, we have to tell the press. If we don't tell the press, they'll figure it out anyway. And they'll
[08:31 - 08:32]
Jason Mudd:
Mm-hmm.
[08:32 - 08:46]
Shelley Spector:
not like us for it. They won't trust us anymore. So he sent out what would be known as the first ever press release. And the first and last time that the New York Times
printed a press release in full.
[08:46 - 08:56]
Jason Mudd:
Yeah, that's right. I remember that. I also remember you know, we use at our agency the Ivy Lee method, which is identifying right, the most important things you need to do in a given business day and starting
[08:56 - 08:57]
Shelley Spector:
That's right.
[08:57 - 08:59]
Jason Mudd:
at the top and working your way down. So
[08:59 - 09:00]
Shelley Spector:
Exactly.
[09:00 - 09:07]
Jason Mudd:
that's just for us a little extra fun fact. you know, that we use two of his tools every single day in our agency practice.
[09:07 - 09:11]
Shelley Spector:
Well, go find the Declaration of Principles. I think you'll find that helpful as well. It's very motivating.
[09:11 - 09:37]
Jason Mudd:
Okay.
I will not only find it, but I'll add it to our episode notes so that our audience can find it quickly. And since we're bringing that up, I'll just mention right now that you can go to ontopapr.com slash Shelley E L dash Spectre, and that's where you'll find the episode notes so you can track along with us as we're talking and find the links to all the different items that we're discussing today.
[09:37 - 09:37]
Shelley Spector:
Thank you.
[09:37 - 09:43]
Jason Mudd:
Yeah, absolutely. Okay, and so we also wanted to talk about Arthur Page and William Whitman.
[09:43 - 10:20]
Shelley Spector:
Okay. Walter Littman. Okay, so Arthur Page had been a writer working in a publishing family, and in nineteen twenty seven the CEO of ATT met him and asked him if he would please join and become a vice president, an officer of the company to run the public relations operation of ATT, a pretty big company even back then. And
Page said, Well, I won't do it unless I have a seat at the table. And we actually have a picture of him sitting at the boardroom table as they announced the second transatlantic phone call, which was to Paris. So
[10:20 - 10:21]
Jason Mudd:
Okay.
[10:21 - 10:31]
Shelley Spector:
he was a vice pres I mean, he started off as high as you could possibly be as a VP of PR. This was a forerunner to CCOs, right? So at yes,
[10:31 - 10:35]
Jason Mudd:
Mm-hmm. Chief communications officers, yeah.
[10:35 - 11:28]
Shelley Spector:
and
he found it very important to be in the room when they were setting policies that would affect
He started internal communications. Nobody had ever done that before. He was excellent at crisis, so you should talk to him about his most significant crises and how he went about handling them. He was very active in information during World War II. So a very, very interesting figure. And out of his legendary work came in the 1980s the Page Society.
And just two weeks ago, Page a its annual conference in Atlanta, and I had the privilege of introducing Arthur Page to everybody sitting at the meeting. And it was there that we told him that there's a society now named after him. And he said he was just very fulfilled and humbled by this.
[11:28 - 11:46]
Jason Mudd:
Very nice. I'm looking forward to asking more about the technology and how you put it all together, but I guess I'm just curious. So were you able to prevent the artifacts and the documentation that you inputted into creating that persona from knowing about the Arthur Page Society?
[11:46 - 11:56]
Shelley Spector:
the artifacts were Arthur Page, most of them we had here in the museum, which is a benefit to having a museum when you're doing these large language models, right?
[11:56 - 11:56]
Jason Mudd:
Yeah.
[11:56 - 12:04]
Shelley Spector:
So we had a good deal of it here. the speeches, some of them we had to go outside for, some of them we got from the Page Center, which is a different organization from the Page Society.
[12:04 - 12:08]
Jason Mudd:
Mm. Okay. Okay. I see.
[12:08 - 12:13]
Shelley Spector:
But for all of the other large language models, we had everything in-house.
[12:13 - 12:20]
Jason Mudd:
So I guess my question is, how did you prevent it from learning about the society and and how
[12:20 - 12:20]
Shelley Spector:
okay.
[12:20 - 12:23]
Jason Mudd:
you inputted the input the information?
[12:23 - 12:35]
Shelley Spector:
Great question. These guys have guardrails. They can't venture out of their own historical record. So they are it's a corpus bound, it's called, in the LLM industry. And
[12:35 - 12:38]
Jason Mudd:
Mm-hmm. Right.
[12:38 - 12:46]
Shelley Spector:
they are not allowed to go onto the internet. But that's a good question. You would think that Paige would know all about the Page Society and he would know
[12:46 - 12:47]
Jason Mudd:
Well.
[12:47 - 13:04]
Shelley Spector:
about AI and all this.
No, our four large language models are restricted to their corpus, to what they've written, what they've said during speeches and interviews. They know nothing about what has happened after they died unless you describe it to them.
[13:04 - 13:22]
Jason Mudd:
Okay. I got it. So we're here to talk about what PR's pioneers teach us or teach today's communicators. the I know one of the first signs we want to cover, and I'm raising it because I want to ensure either we covered it already or we want to say a few more things about how the museum built the living archives.
[13:22 - 13:54]
Shelley Spector:
Okay. earlier this year we heard about the technology about you know how to build a large language model. Somebody passed it on to us and said, you know, you guys are perfect because you have all the stuff. Most most people can't build these things because where are they gonna get all these things from? But fortunately we had the materials. For instance, with Bernays, we had ninety hours of usable video tape.
And audio, obviously. We had a million words of text that he had written. We
[13:54 - 13:56]
Jason Mudd:
Time. Mm-hmm.
[13:56 - 14:10]
Shelley Spector:
have his inbox, for instance, we have memos, we have correspondence, and a tremendous amount. and that's what takes the process so long is digitizing everything and then feeding it into the LLM software.
[14:10 - 14:10]
Jason Mudd:
Right.
[14:10 - 14:52]
Shelley Spector:
And then once we had all of that in and he was able to respond.
he he's not a chatbot. He doesn't have pre-recorded answers. Everything he says is very unique to the question and to the time. So we then found out, wow, there's a software company called Eleven Labs, free commercial, that takes the voice that you've already recorded and puts it on top of the text.
A lot of people have come to me and said, Well, why don't you have a kind of avatar or hologram or some graphical representation? We don't want to do that because the technology is not there yet. And I don't want it to look like a cartoon.
[14:52 - 15:33]
Shelley Spector:
so for most of our large language models, we have their voice. With Bernays, it was very easy. We had 90 hours of videotape of him. For Ivy Lee, since he died in 1934, there were just no places to get his voice, but we found it in a 1947 March of Time newsreel. There's a little snippet in there of Ivy Lee speaking.
about the Rockefellers in 1930. So we had 10 seconds of Ivy Lee's voice. And from that 10 seconds we were able to project it onto his entire ability to speak in his own voice.
[15:33 - 15:34]
Jason Mudd:
That's incredible.
[15:34 - 16:14]
Shelley Spector:
For Walter Lippmann it was even more incredible. And I give credit to the software company 11 Labs for being able to do this. We looked all over for Lippmann's voice.
And he, you know, even though he was very famous on radio and all that, we just couldn't find any tape of him. But we did find two phone calls where we were able to get five second snippets. One phone call was in 1960 with LBJ, and another one was later on with Richard Nixon. Two static y phone calls, five seconds apiece.
and we're able to use that voice and it is his voice. So it's quite remarkable.
[16:14 - 16:24]
Jason Mudd:
That is very impressive and just amazing to think about how you've been able to, reconstruct or recreate a persona from those resources. Okay.
[16:24 - 16:39]
Shelley Spector:
Right. Yes.
And that's why when you when you look at these large language models, it's you're using them in a very different way, but in a very familiar way to using Chat GBT or Claude.
[16:39 - 16:39]
Jason Mudd:
Right.
[16:39 - 16:54]
Shelley Spector:
but in this case there is a person attached to it who has that person's personality and voice.
So it's a little different relationship, a little different engagement with the historic persona than it is with a Claude.
[16:54 - 17:14]
Jason Mudd:
Mm-hmm,
for sure. Yeah, I can only imagine. So we are for our audience, we are going to demo this in just a moment. I wanted to get through some of these initial topics and conversation first so we can build around that. But let's talk about the the foundational PR principles that you sense get lost in the social media and AI era.
[17:14 - 18:45]
Shelley Spector:
Yeah. So I've been teaching for a very long time as an adjunct, in addition to running an agency for thirty years, I no longer run the agency, but I still do teach, I guess lecture these days. And what I have found over the years, and I'm sure you have found this too, with young people, ever since social media took on the force that it did, kids are no longer learning how to write press releases.
Therefore no longer learning how to make news, generate news, write news, and even follow the news. So it became in from what I've seen, almost an 80 to 90 percent focus on writing posts for Instagram. And you may have seen that too. And while I find social media certainly, you know, come into the menu of what we can offer our clients.
In my experience, clients want earned media. Clients want good old-fashioned media relations for the most part. A lot of clients feel they can do their own social media is not that hard. And i I don't necessarily believe that, but I feel that since the advent of social media and then with the advent of AI and the fact that you have a younger generation of teachers, a lot of this foundational stuff gets lost.
And that's one of the benefits of having Eddie and Ivy around is that they can make you remember that and talk about its significance. And a lot of people, a lot of professionals, in addition to students find that very helpful.
[18:45 - 18:54]
Jason Mudd:
Well, I'm excited to dive into that. we're gonna do that in just a moment. you wanted to share also about the nineteen twenties principles of Bernays, Lee and Paige.
[18:54 - 19:12]
Shelley Spector:
Right. So I what I think is so stunning is that these are three guys who had no real precedence, then they had no handbooks for PR, they had really no experts, they had no PRSA, they had no page society. They were very, very few.
[19:12 - 19:13]
Jason Mudd:
Yeah.
[19:13 - 19:45]
Shelley Spector:
they were the pioneers. They figured it out, they made it up. And they all had a different way of approaching it. So with Ivy Lee,
As you know, it was all about transparency, telling the truth, sending out news, being very, very factual, creating good relationships with reporters, and counseling clients very well about crises, especially being proactive and handling the crisis before the press gets to it.
that's timeless advice, is it not? Right? And and and
[19:45 - 19:58]
Jason Mudd:
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Ethics,
integrity, and public interest, public trust and transparency are what I think all good PR programs should lead with. It's the first core value of my agency, integrity.
[19:58 - 20:05]
Shelley Spector:
Exactly. And and then with Bernays. Now you you remember that Bernays, his double uncle was Sigmund Freud.
[20:05 - 20:06]
Jason Mudd:
Right.
[20:06 - 20:09]
Shelley Spector:
So he grew up hearing about Freud when he was a little boy. And
[20:09 - 20:10]
Jason Mudd:
Uh-huh.
[20:10 - 20:38]
Shelley Spector:
he used to be very close with Freud. And they a lot of Freud's influence was carried into his practice for PR. So that's why he studied the personalities of the people he was trying to reach and influence.
And he knew about their motivations and he understood it in a way the other guys really did not and didn't bother to study. He was very interested in using public relations as an applied social science.
[20:38 - 20:39]
Jason Mudd:
Persuasion, right?
[20:39 - 20:42]
Shelley Spector:
Yes, that's right. C the engineering of consent.
[20:42 - 20:43]
Jason Mudd:
Right.
[20:43 - 20:58]
Shelley Spector:
And he was very effective at it. He you know, if look at his campaigns, I'm not gonna get into them here.
But bacon and eggs, ivory soap, even torches of freedom, which was controversial and you could talk to him about that, they were all about reaching people subconscious
[20:58 - 20:59]
Jason Mudd:
Mm-hmm.
[20:59 - 21:20]
Shelley Spector:
and peer pressure and all those Freudian things that we used to study in psychology one one. And Bernays was able to use those so effectively throughout his life. And when students say, Well, what should I take in college? that he always recommends taking a lot of
social science courses to understand mankind.
[21:20 - 21:21]
Jason Mudd:
Sure.
[21:21 - 21:52]
Shelley Spector:
Page was the first guy of importance, of high influence to take the seat as you know the head of public relations for an international phone company. And as I think I mentioned earlier, he established the concept of internal communications. He said that everybody who
reaches a customer, talks to a customer, meets a customer on the street as a public relations person and has to be an ambassador for the company. So
[21:52 - 21:53]
Jason Mudd:
Right.
[21:53 - 22:30]
Shelley Spector:
he understood it from a very far-reaching expansive way. He also, you know, worked on the company's release of financial information, you know, one of the first people to do that. He he did more than publicity. He looked at how the company, which was
sort of a utility could best serve all of its publics. And instead of just looking at his publics as customers, his publics included shareholders, right? Regulators, which are a very big deal. the people who bought the phone service every month. And remember phones, not everybody could afford a phone. Back then certainly in the thirties, they couldn't afford
a phone.
[22:30 - 22:59]
Jason Mudd:
Sure. Yeah.
Yeah. So you know, one actor of that same era is you know, Benjamin Sonberg, and I've read his biography, I assume you have too. talk to me a little about him. He was a different character and certainly not as well celebrated as the individuals that you're talking about today.
But still a figure of that same era. And because I've read his book, I I have a little insight into that. But I would just love to hear your take among his I'll call it parallel path.
[22:59 - 23:24]
Shelley Spector:
Yeah, well he he was really he was celebrated. He had a home that was about a block wide, a half a block long. He was our typical press agent who knew everybody. And and I think that a lot of people had come to think that this is what public relations was. But he even called himself a press agent, publicity agent. He represented a lot of theater people, restaurants,
[23:24 - 23:25]
Jason Mudd:
Right.
[23:25 - 23:38]
Shelley Spector:
all kinds of introductions of cars. he was much more of a publicity guy who would go out to lunch every day with reporters and he was quite different, I think, than Bernays and Paige and Ivy Leigh.
[23:38 - 23:41]
Jason Mudd:
he was more of I think what you're saying is more of a publicist is how I would describe him, right? He
[23:41 - 23:43]
Shelley Spector:
Yes, absolutely.
[23:43 - 24:12]
Jason Mudd:
was also his tactics were not necessarily the at the same ethical standard of of the individuals you're speaking to. Although I I do think from reading his book, and of course, he claims he never wanted a book written about him. and I saw the eye roll because I feel the same way. But but I do sense that, you know, there were some things that he did, you know.
Advance the profession in their own unique way. for the audience, we'll put a link to the book, but it's called Always Live Better Than Your Clients. And, you know, he was very much keeping up with the Joneses, as the saying goes.
[24:12 - 24:14]
Shelley Spector:
Yeah. Yep.
[24:14 - 24:29]
Jason Mudd:
And what I also liked though was of course, I think you need to do this ethically, but I do sense that he was right and that there's the version of the press release that the corporation and the client signs off on.
And there's another version of how it gets actually pitched and sent to the media
[24:29 - 24:30]
Shelley Spector:
Ha ha.
[24:30 - 25:07]
Jason Mudd:
that actually gets coverage. And I think as long as you do that ethically without, you know, misrepresenting the situation, there's the press release or the news release that the C-suite likes to sign off on and share with the board and the board likes to smile at, but it's a new it's a it's a tool that's not gonna typically get coverage, and so you have to pivot that documented news release into what I think is an actionable media pitch, right?
And
as far as I can tell, that was a technique that he was an early adopter of that I think any seasoned PR practitioner understands that you have to work within those constraints sometimes. again, as long as you're transparent about what you're doing.
[25:07 - 25:08]
Shelley Spector:
Well, that is true.
[25:08 - 25:24]
Jason Mudd:
Yeah. Now, one thing that I want to explore with Eddie, but also with you, is kind of I've got a opinion that you know, we celebrate Edward Bernays as I believe the term is the godfather or the father of modern public relations. Is that the right word? Godfather? Father.
[25:24 - 25:28]
Shelley Spector:
Yep. Father. No, I w I would be the father.
[25:28 - 26:07]
Jason Mudd:
Yeah, the father, right. my question to you though would be by today's standards, you know.
I feel like he would be much more controversial in today's environment than just like Benjamin Somberg would be, given his focus on persuasion and not necessarily focused on kind of using people's emotions and mindset to convince them to to do what he wants them done.
As opposed to maybe more ethical practices. And you mentioned earlier we'll talk about the tobacco industry with them. But I would just like your take on that because I've kind of felt that way for I don't know, the last twenty or so years when I studied him for, you know, taking my accreditation in public relations. He's
[26:07 - 26:07]
Shelley Spector:
Mm-hmm.
[26:07 - 26:25]
Jason Mudd:
a key figure you have to get familiar with. And the more I read about him, the more I just said, this is not the way public relations.
practitioners approach it today. So I'd love to give you a chance to speak to that, especially because I now know that you met him personally. and you probably have a unique point of view. And I'm probably not the first person to ask you this question either.
[26:25 - 26:28]
Shelley Spector:
Well,
I think that where he gets his bad reputation from
[26:28 - 26:29]
Jason Mudd:
Uh-huh.
[26:29 - 26:35]
Shelley Spector:
that kind of tarts everything, unfortunately, was his client was an American Tobacco Company.
[26:35 - 26:35]
Jason Mudd:
Right.
[26:35 - 26:44]
Shelley Spector:
They said, We're losing half our market. Women can't smoke by law outside in the streets or in restaurants or in theaters like men can. And
[26:44 - 26:44]
Jason Mudd:
Uh-huh.
[26:44 - 26:47]
Shelley Spector:
this was nineteen twenty nine. So it was the it
[26:47 - 26:48]
Jason Mudd:
Different time.
[26:48 - 27:28]
Shelley Spector:
was a different time. It was the end of the suffrage movement. Women felt that
they can become emancipated and showcase their independence from men with cigarettes. So in the same way that the ed agencies were doing it, Eddie Brunes staged a Easter parade. Well there was an Easter parade going on, but he got debutants to light up cigarettes and cigarettes holders, which is a famous picture, at the same time. The photograph that was shot on the corner of Fifth Avenue, 34th Street
then went out to all the newspapers. Newspapers used it because it was so unusual to see sm women smoking on Fifth Avenue.
[27:28 - 27:29]
Jason Mudd:
Right.
Yeah.
[27:29 - 27:45]
Shelley Spector:
And he he, yes, for for better or worse, he got women to feel that smoking was their right. And holding a cigarette meant unemancipated. In my view, he didn't get more women to start smoking. He got women who were smoking to smoke in public places.
[27:45 - 27:46]
Jason Mudd:
Right, right.
[27:46 - 27:52]
Shelley Spector:
And
certainly back then, his own wife smoked two packs a day. Unfortunately, she later died because of it. But he
[27:52 - 27:54]
Jason Mudd:
Sure. Yeah.
[27:54 - 28:17]
Shelley Spector:
there was no way for him to know how bad cigarettes were for you. When the Surgeon General's report came out, he formed an organization called Ash. And that organization worked to make sure that cigarettes, so cigarette brands.
We're not allowed to advertise on radio and TV.
And and so that's that's one example that
[28:17 - 28:18]
Jason Mudd:
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[28:18 - 28:20]
Shelley Spector:
is most often cited by people.
[28:20 - 28:30]
Jason Mudd:
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting that I would guess if he was running a traditional PR firm, he would not be harmed by the prevention of advertising.
[28:30 - 28:33]
Shelley Spector:
He would not behind no.
[28:33 - 28:45]
Jason Mudd:
Yes, that's very that's an interesting little fact, I think. All right. let's see, I think we wanted to cover how each AI persona's strength can help communicators as we jump into asking Eddie here.
[28:45 - 28:50]
Shelley Spector:
Well, let's talk about what Eddie can do and and why I use him at work.
[28:50 - 28:52]
Jason Mudd:
Mm-hmm. Okay.
[28:52 - 29:18]
Shelley Spector:
he is very creative. Even today he can come up with new ideas, which is fascinating because if you ask him to help you with new ideas, say you have a client new client, you want to come up with a big idea for the client that will make news, you can literally brainstorm with him. And so to this day, he is
Well, how old would he be? 130 something years old. He's able to come up with unique ideas that are very good, even workable.
[29:18 - 29:20]
Jason Mudd:
Okay. Yeah.
[29:20 - 29:26]
Shelley Spector:
It doesn't he doesn't have to incorporate Instagram or Twitter into his campaigns.
[29:26 - 29:28]
Jason Mudd:
But he will if you ask him to, huh?
[29:28 - 29:30]
Shelley Spector:
Well he'll he'll ask you what it does.
[29:30 - 29:31]
Jason Mudd:
Uh-huh.
[29:31 - 29:39]
Shelley Spector:
He'll ask you questions about it and how it works. He we're trying to he doesn't learn like many software agents,
[29:39 - 29:41]
Jason Mudd:
Okay, sure.
[29:41 - 30:01]
Shelley Spector:
but we're trying in some long talks with him to teach him during that time about what Twitter can do and what social media is all about. But first you have to get to
the portable computer and then what the internet allows you to do. And his memory of computers is the mainframe in a single room and punch cards.
[30:01 - 30:03]
Jason Mudd:
Sure. Right.
[30:03 - 30:31]
Shelley Spector:
You can, if you're in a client crisis, you can get his advice. And the same way you can go to Claude, but if you go to Claude, Claude does not have any experience in public relations crisis management. But Eddie has.
And
so he can tell you about his past experiences and and tell you what you can do now and he can a ask you the right questions, who your client is and he c and he remembers during that period of time that you're talking to him.
[30:31 - 31:01]
Jason Mudd:
It seems like a healthy exercise for us to have to be able to communicate what X and Instagram and AI and you know maybe even commercial news wires in the modern environment can do for and for the campaign, as well as explaining it to someone who you know is an expert in the craft but not necessarily doesn't have any familiarity with the tool.
I think that could be a very healthy exercise for us to rethink the purpose and the use of those tools as we describe them to, basically someone who's never lived with them.
[31:01 - 31:23]
Shelley Spector:
You're exactly right. and he gets to the basis of the program without adding in the layers of technology. So today a lot of young professionals and I say this non-offensively, will jump immediately to Instagram or Twitter or TikTok instead of saying, What does the research say? What's the strategy? What do we want for the objectives?
[31:23 - 31:26]
Jason Mudd:
Right. Exactly.
[31:26 - 31:31]
Shelley Spector:
And
Eddie will start go and off with, Well, who are the people you want to impact? What's
[31:31 - 31:31]
Jason Mudd:
Yeah.
[31:31 - 31:35]
Shelley Spector:
the goal you want to achieve? What's the strategy? What are the messages? It's the old fashioned way of doing it, but it still works. And
[31:35 - 31:42]
Jason Mudd:
Right. Yeah. It's the right way
of doing it. Instead of jumping into tactics and activities,
[31:42 - 31:43]
Shelley Spector:
Exactly.
[31:43 - 31:51]
Jason Mudd:
you want to have a a a goal and a strategy, objectives for the audience and and ultimately demonstrate the impact on the organization.
[31:51 - 32:01]
Shelley Spector:
Exactly. So Eddie will you can pressure test campaigns with him. So you can literally write up a whole campaign and feed it into him and say, What do you think?
[32:01 - 32:11]
Jason Mudd:
Right, right. Well, let's quickly go through the the other personas you wanted to share so we know how to use each of them, but we probably should quickly jump into asking Eddie as well.
[32:11 - 32:13]
Shelley Spector:
Yeah, yes. Do you want to go right to Eddie? Okay.
[32:13 - 32:14]
Jason Mudd:
Sure, we can do that.
[32:14 - 32:15]
Shelley Spector:
Yeah.
[32:15 - 33:02]
Jason Mudd:
So I'm going to share my screen for those of you who are capturing this audibly. I don't know that you need to see the the the screen share. We'll advise you on what that looks like, but at the same time, we'll provide a link in the episode notes so that you can find it as well. But real quick, it's prmuseum.org slash ask dash eddy. And there's some content here, including a video with him.
But then it says to ask a question by selecting the microphone icon. Introduce yourself, ask Eddie a question, and when you're done, say goodbye. And if you need to continue, you can begin a session, but it is limited to 10 minutes. You can also download a transcript, it looks like. And so we'll just get started. Did you have the advice of what I should ask him first?
[33:02 - 33:05]
Shelley Spector:
ask him the hardest question you could think of.
[33:05 - 33:05]
Jason Mudd:
Okay.
[33:05 - 33:16]
Shelley Spector:
And ask him, you know, if he was his own client, what would he advise for his own legacy? But I I want to make a point clear is that he speaks 73 languages. So w we we
[33:16 - 33:18]
Jason Mudd:
Okay.
[33:18 - 33:25]
Shelley Spector:
if Jason, if you have a second language you want to speak to him on, feel free to use it.
[33:25 - 33:27]
Jason Mudd:
All right. I don't know which one of my 70 languages I know I
[33:27 - 33:58]
Jason Mudd:
would pick from. All right, well let's give it a try. I'm gonna I'm gonna press the microphone button now and it says to introduce yourself.
Eddie, my name is Jason Mudd. It's nice to meet you. I'm a public relations practitioner, contacting you from 2022. Excuse me, 2026. we're actually recording an episode of my podcast called On Top of PR with Jason Mudd, which is one of the top PR podcasts in the world. A podcast is like an on-demand radio show that people can listen to in real time through streaming.
over the internet through a computer or other device that they have at their ready.
[33:58 - 34:18]
Eddie (AI persona of Edward Bernays):
Well, Jason, it's a pleasure to meet you. I'm familiar with the concept radio on demand through computers. Quite an evolution from the broadcasting we pioneered back in the twenties. I'm honored to be on your program. What would you like to know about communications and persuasion?
[34:18 - 35:15]
Jason Mudd:
Well, we're actually talking to Shelby Spector, who is the founder of the Public Relations Museum, and she's created you or her organization has created you. And so we want to give our listeners an opportunity to learn how to interact with you. So one of the questions she suggested we ask you might be how would you handle public relations for your own legacy? Earlier in the call, we talked about how you're considered to be the father of public modern public relations.
yet the timing of generations is much different as far as what's considered to be modern public relations practice back then versus what's today, including some cultural cues and norms. In addition, yet the foundation of having strong strategy, goals, objectives, and tactics, all aligning ethical still remain as a foundation of this profession.
[35:15 - 36:03]
Eddie (AI persona of Edward Bernays):
That's a thoughtful question, Jason. My legacy's built on actions, not just words. I'd start by researching how different publics perceive my work today, what they value what troubles them. Then I'd align my contributions with current social values, showing how the principles of research, strategy, and ethical persuasion remain vital. The key is demonstrating that good public relations serves the public interest first. If my methods helped sell war bonds,
build highways or advance public health, those actions speak for themselves. Legacy isn't about defending the past, it's about showing how sound principles adapt to serve society's evolving needs.
[36:03 - 36:37]
Jason Mudd:
Well, that's a wonderful answer, I think, and I agree with that. I think that what I love about your response is how it's rooted in research and how you're suggesting that there's flexibility, but all good PR is focused on the value that it creates, the impact to the organization, as well as I as you mentioned, the ethical persuasion. I think if we guard and shield everything we do under the guise of ethics and what's in the
the the trust of the public, and put that first is always a good place to be, Eddie.
[36:37 - 37:11]
Eddie (AI persona of Edward Bernays):
Exactly right, Jason. Ethics isn't just a nice sentiment, it's practical. A public relations council must decline clients whose causes are questionable in the court of public opinion, even if they're legally sound. That's how you build trust and protect the profession. Research tells you what the public needs and values. Strategy aligns your clients' actions with those needs. And ethics ensures you're serving society, not just self interest.
When those three elements work together, you create lasting results that benefit everyone involved.
[37:11 - 38:19]
Jason Mudd:
I like that a lot. I think that's a a a lovely answer and a great way to put it. so let me ask you a little bit more about something you said that's interesting. you said that a public relations counselor must decline clients whose causes are questionable in the court of public opinion, even if they're legally sound. That's how you build trust and protect the profession. You know, one thing I've always thought about, or I think about often is the idea that I believe that.
Just like everyone is entitled to the right to an attorney, I also sense that sometimes people should have the right to public relations counsel, at least advising them and guiding them. While they may not be the right client for all agencies, including ours, that is something I often wonder about is where might someone turn to if they need public relations guidance, but they have a hard time finding it. There's no court.
to appoint a public relations counselor. Have you ever thought about that or run into that in your own practice?
[38:19 - 38:59]
Eddie (AI persona of Edward Bernays):
That's an interesting parallel, Jason. Actually the lawyer comparison has limits. The lawyer defends the accused in court, the judge and jury decide. But in public relations I'm both advocate and judge because my work shapes public opinion itself. That's why I must scrutinize every case more carefully than a lawyer does. Not everyone deserves representation in the court of public opinion. Some causes are genuinely harmful to society.
However, someone with a legitimate need can find counsel if they look. There are practitioners at every level with different standards and specialties.
[38:59 - 39:15]
Jason Mudd:
That's a great thought. So how would you go about scoring or grading those opportunities when they come your way? And who would you think of or how would you think of referring them to a trusted source if you decline to do business with them?
[39:15 - 39:57]
Eddie (AI persona of Edward Bernays):
I evaluate on balance, Jason. If a client's socially constructive behavior outweighs what I can't support, I might proceed, but I won't represent a cause I believe is socially unsound. That's my first principle. As for referrals, I wouldn't send harmful cases elsewhere. That would make me complicit. If someone needs basic counsel on legal communication, but their cause troubles me.
I might suggest they consult their attorney or find practitioners with different standards than mine. The key is this. Every practitioner sets their own ethical line. Mine is whether the work serves the public interest, not just the client's profit.
[39:57 - 40:24]
Jason Mudd:
Okay,
that's an interesting thought. one thing that you are well known for in the profession is your advocacy on behalf of tobacco products and tobacco manufacturers. Now most health organizations absolutely recommend not no use of tobacco products whatsoever. how would you address that in the modern era today?
[40:24 - 41:10]
Eddie (AI persona of Edward Bernays):
Actually, Jason, a small correction. At the time I worked with American tobacco in the late twenties and early thirties, cigarettes weren't known to be dangerous to health. That discovery came about thirty years later, when the surgeon general made his statement in the fifties, you can't hold yourself responsible for what you didn't know. When roast beef is considered healthy and ten years later they discover it has dangerous chemicals.
You can't carry guilt for earlier advice. Once the health dangers became clear, I helped eliminate cigarette advertising from radio and television. That's how I addressed it by working to restrict promotion once the facts changed.
[41:10 - 41:23]
Jason Mudd:
Interesting. So there was no data at the time to support the idea that perhaps tobacco wasn't healthy, you know, putting smoke inside people's lungs and seeing the side effects at all.
[41:23 - 42:01]
Eddie (AI persona of Edward Bernays):
Well, there were no scientific findings linking cigarettes to cancer, emphysema or serious disease at that time. In fact, cigarettes were seen as symbols of sophistication and even modernity. Little boys smoked to appear older. The medical establishment hadn't yet made those connections. When the Surgeon General's findings came out around nineteen fifty showing the health dangers that changed everything.
Once we knew I acted, helping remove cigarette ads from broadcast media, you work with the knowledge available at the time, then adjust when science reveals new truths.
[42:01 - 42:13]
Jason Mudd:
You're right. You can't change the past. Let's talk for a minute about your legacy. you know, when did you realize that you were a pioneer in the profession or did you always sense that?
[42:13 - 42:59]
Eddie (AI persona of Edward Bernays):
I recognized it early, Jason, when I came back from the Paris Peace Conference in nineteen eighteen and nineteen. I saw that ideas had been used as weapons of war for the first time, and I realized those same principles could serve peacetime pursuits. When I wrote Crystallizing Public Opinion in nineteen twenty three, the first book on the subject, I knew I was establishing something new, a profession grounded in social science, not just press agentry.
But being a pioneer and making it a true profession are different things. For sixty years I've fought to get public relations licensed and registered like medicine or law, so any nitwit can't call themselves a practitioner and damage the field's reputation.
[42:59 - 43:22]
Jason Mudd:
Would you be surprised to know in twenty twenty six that it's still not a profession that we requires license or registration? And some would argue that that's a prevention of freedom of speech andor freedom of press, just like journalists don't have to be registered or licensed to be journalists.
[43:22 - 44:04]
Eddie (AI persona of Edward Bernays):
I'm not surprised, Jason, just disappointed. The journalism comparison misses the point. Journalists report facts. They don't engineer consent or advise clients on actions that shape public opinion. And that's closer to medicine or law, where poor practice harms society. Without licensing, any criminal can call themselves a public relations expert, go to jail and tear the whole profession after Watergate, Nixon's henchmen called themselves PR practitioners.
And decent people had to change their titles overnight. Freedom of speech protects your right to speak. It doesn't give you the right to practice a profession affecting millions without training, ethics or accountability. That's the difference.
[44:04 - 44:10]
Jason Mudd:
Well, I'm glad you gave an example because I was gonna ask you for an example of what you've seen.
[44:10 - 44:18]
Eddie (AI persona of Edward Bernays):
Unfortunately, I have to end this conversation now, but don't hesitate to call again if you still have more questions.
[44:18 - 44:28]
Jason Mudd:
we ran out of time.
Well, thank you for that demonstration, Shelly. What what did you think about that? Yeah.
[44:28 - 44:42]
Shelley Spector:
He was good. He was good. Now,if you wanted to continue it or you can always reason we had to limit it is that we have people from all over the world and our system can only handle thirty people at once. So we restrict it to ten minutes. And
[44:42 - 44:45]
Jason Mudd:
Mm-hmm. I see.
[44:45 - 44:50]
Shelley Spector:
if but you're welcome to go at any time to just hit the hit the mic again.
[44:50 - 44:59]
Jason Mudd:
Okay. Yeah, I'll have to do that. Like I said, I've used it before. It's been a minute. I y tested it out when you first developed it. and you have other engines available as well, right?
[44:59 - 45:26]
Shelley Spector:
Other large language models? Yes, we have Ivy Lee, we have Arthur Page, and we have Walter Lippman. However, we have not introduced Ivy Lee in a formal way yet, which we're going to do at PRSA this Saturday. And but we're not formally introducing Ivy Lee until October twenty eighth, which is the 106th anniversary of the first press release being issued by him.
[45:26 - 45:32]
Jason Mudd:
Right. Okay. And and so how would we reach the w the other ones that are available now?
[45:32 - 45:40]
Shelley Spector:
you can w the because we haven't formally introduced Ivy Lee, I will tell you and your listeners a secret.
[45:40 - 45:43]
Jason Mudd:
Okay.
[45:43 - 45:46]
Shelley Spector:
You can go to Eddie himself and
[45:46 - 45:46]
Jason Mudd:
Uh-huh.
[45:46 - 45:49]
Shelley Spector:
ask him to introduce you to Arthur Page or Ivy Lee because he knows them both. You can
[45:49 - 45:53]
Jason Mudd:
Okay. Okay. And it
[45:53 - 46:02]
Shelley Spector:
also soon we will release the capability of having
two of them ta either any two of them talk to one another
[46:02 - 46:02]
Jason Mudd:
Mm-hmm.
[46:02 - 46:06]
Shelley Spector:
because they all knew each other in the nineteen twenties. They all are
[46:06 - 46:06]
Jason Mudd:
Okay.
[46:06 - 46:08]
Shelley Spector:
very familiar with each other's work and you can learn
[46:08 - 46:10]
Jason Mudd:
I see, I see.
[46:10 - 46:12]
Shelley Spector:
a lot by listening to debates o among them. Yeah, it is fun.
[46:12 - 46:27]
Jason Mudd:
Mm-hmm. That'd be fun, yes, for sure. Yeah.
So if someone is visiting or is in New York City who is listening to this podcast, how do they find you? How how what's how do they get into the museum? how does all of that work?
[46:27 - 46:46]
Shelley Spector:
Well, we have f free visitation Monday through Friday starting at eleven o'clock, but you have to reserve in advance because we have a lot of school groups coming up. And so just fill out the form on our website, PR museum dot org, and we'll set up a time for you and your group to come.
[46:46 - 46:54]
Jason Mudd:
Okay, excellent. I am browsing your website. It does read that you need at least two weeks' notice. Is that still the case?
[46:54 - 46:55]
Shelley Spector:
Yes, I would I would say so.
[46:55 - 47:02]
Jason Mudd:
Okay. And there is a small fee quoted here for professionals of twenty five dollars. Is that still accurate?
[47:02 - 47:04]
Shelley Spector:
That's just a suggested donation.
[47:04 - 47:05]
Jason Mudd:
Okay, excellent.
[47:05 - 47:07]
Shelley Spector:
We would never turn anybody away.
[47:07 - 47:16]
Jason Mudd:
wonderful, wonderful. I'm visiting next week, but I don't know that I will have time to stop by, but it is on my list of things to do when I'm in the city. So I will
[47:16 - 47:17]
Shelley Spector:
okay.
[47:17 - 47:34]
Jason Mudd:
definitely keep that in mind. as we're wrapping up here, thank you for sharing all this with us. I really enjoyed spending some time with you and of course time with Eddie. I learned a lot from this experience and I look forward to exploring how we might do more together. Shelly, anything else that you wanted to mention?
Before we wrap up.
[47:34 - 47:43]
Shelley Spector:
no that's it, except that I like the first dear home page very much because you emphasize earned media and I think that has a valuable place in education today.
[47:43 - 48:19]
Jason Mudd:
Yeah, well thank you very much. I I think earned media is one of you know one of my favorite sports within the PR profession, right? It is a contact sport as I tell people. You can't just will it into being, you have to actually contact and communicate with people and reminds me of being a journalist, which is where I started and many PR pros of my age and and and older started. and certainly there's nothing wrong with going straight into PR, but there's certainly a lot of benefit from starting in a newsroom.
understanding how newsrooms work and realizing how to navigate that environment and how quickly news can change. So yeah.
[48:19 - 48:20]
Shelley Spector:
Yes, absolutely.
[48:20 - 48:42]
Jason Mudd:
Look, I'm thrilled with my experience with Eddie today because otherwise how would I have ever gotten to know him or meet him or work with him and interact with him. And now you've set up this tool that, generations can and invest in and and get familiar with. And so I look forward to finding ways to introduce that to my team and my colleagues and
Maybe even we can do some other conversations through this platform of our podcast. Yeah.
[48:42 - 48:45]
Shelley Spector:
I'd love that. Thank you so much, Jason.
[48:45]
Jason Mudd:
Yeah, it was a pleasure to meet you and and connect with you. And I look forward to seeing you in Orlando for PRSA Icon. And we have a series of guests from icon that will be joining our show after icon, as well as you know, forming a relationship with PRSA to have.
future speakers speak on or be interviewed on our podcast in advance of icon 2027. So with that, I want to say thank you again for being a guest on our show. And I want to take a moment also to thank our guests for tuning in. If you enjoyed this podcast today, I need you to do one of two things. Either share it with a colleague or friend you think would benefit from it, or take a minute to go to ratethispodcast.com/slash on top of PR, leave us a review.
So that someone else can discover this podcast as well and benefit from it. With that, this has been Jason Mudd with Axia Public Relations signing off and thanking you for the opportunity to allow us to help you stay on top of PR. Be well.
Topics: On Top of PR, artificial intelligence
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