In this episode, M.J. Clark joins host Jason Mudd to discuss how PR pros can manage stress and thrive under pressure by adopting better leadership practices.
Tune in to learn more!
Watch the episode here:
Listen to the episode here:
5 things you’ll learn during the full episode:
- Why PR is among the most stressful careers and what you can do about it
- The five ways people typically respond to stress and how to identify your style
- Ways to manage stress before it leads to burnout
- How tools like journaling, affirmations, and body language influence emotional control
- How assertiveness and boundary-setting help PR pros manage clients
About M.J. Clark
M.J. Clark is the vice president at Integrated Leadership Systems, where she serves as an executive coach, leadership consultant, and trainer. With over 15 years of experience, she helps professionals and organizations manage stress, improve communication, and develop stronger leadership skills. M.J. specializes in guiding executives through high-pressure situations, teaching them how to set boundaries, build emotional intelligence, and communicate with clarity and confidence.
She holds a master’s degree in organizational communication from The Ohio State University and authored three books, including “Leading Through Listening.” Her work blends research-based strategies with real-world applications, making her a sought-after speaker and coach across industries. M.J.’s mission is to help leaders thrive under pressure while fostering healthier workplace cultures through assertiveness, trust, and self-awareness.
Quotables
- "You don’t realize how much stress you’re taking on when you’re not sharing your thoughts and feelings." — @MJ Clark
- "PR is high-pressure by nature, but burnout isn’t inevitable." — @MJ Clark
- "Being a trusted adviser means showing up clearly, confidently, and consistently." — @JasonMudd9
- "When we reframe our thoughts, we reshape how we lead and respond under pressure." — @MJ Clark
- "Assertiveness isn’t confrontation. It’s clarity with compassion." — @MJ Clark
Resources
Episode Resources:
- M.J. Clark on LinkedIn
- Integrated Leadership System website
- How to Journal in 2025
- Leading Through Listening
Additional Resources from Axia Public Relations:
- Dealing with stress in the public relations industry with Mark Mohammadpour
- PR professionals are not perfect
- Listen to more episodes of the On Top of PR podcast.
- Find out more about Axia Public Relations.
Disclosure: One or more of the links we shared here might be affiliate links that offer us a referral reward when you buy from them.
Our On Top of PR sponsors:
Production sponsor: Axia Public Relations, one of America’s Best PR Agencies, according to Forbes Magazine
Presenting sponsor: ReviewMaxer, the platform for monitoring, improving, and promoting online customer reviews
Coffee Sponsor: Fans like you fuel our efforts using buy me a coffee.
Episode Highlights
[06:59] Today’s stress response is biologically similar to facing a saber-tooth tiger
"So it's no longer the saber-tooth tiger. It's like the deadline that this reporter has that now becomes that stressor. So our body reacts in the same way."
[10:45] The five ways people respond to stress
"So as I'm taking some mental notes here, I think what I'm hearing you say is the five, ways our body responds to stress is, fight flight..."
[14:30] Understanding how you personally experience stress
"So let's talk secondly about knowing how you experience stress. I know that the physical, emotional, cognitive or mental, and how that how knowing how you experience stress can help you combat stress."
[20:12] The power of journaling to reduce stress
"Journaling has a lot of health benefits. It lowers your blood pressure. It increases your immunity levels, which we all need with, all of the germs going around these days."
[25:00] Your body language can reduce stress and boost confidence
"So even posing in ways that are powerful... can also influence our brain. It's thinking, wow, she must be really confident."
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Transcript
00;00;00;00 - 00;00;07;22
M.J.
you don't realize how much stress you're taking on when you're not sharing your thoughts and feelings with other people.
00;00;07;25 - 00;00;30;19
M.J.
And so we'll tend to, people who are more passive, like me will stuff stuff, stuff, all their feelings, and then they'll come out in ways that are not helpful to us. So dealing with things as they occur and addressing those things, setting appropriate boundaries and really being more assertive can help with stress.
00;00;30;19 - 00;00;40;17
Announcer
Welcome to On Top of PR with Jason Mudd.
00;00;40;17 - 00;00;44;07
Jason
Hello and welcome to On Top of PR, I'm your host Jason Mudd with Axia Public Relations.
00;00;44;07 - 00;01;09;22
Jason
And today I'm joined by fellow colleague MJ Clarke with Integrated Leadership Systems as a vice president of Integrated Leadership Systems. MJ Clarke has been a leadership consultant, executive coach and workplace trainer since 2006. She helps companies with ownership and management succession, strategic planning and executive development. She coaches executives to help them help others.
00;01;09;22 - 00;01;11;01
Jason
Sorry.
00;01;11;03 - 00;01;29;06
Jason
How to help them keep others accountable. Better manage stress. Develop emotional intelligence and become more assertive. She's a master's degree in organizational communication from Ohio State University and is the author of three leadership books. Welcome to the show! MJ.
00;01;29;14 - 00;01;32;03
M.J.
Thanks so much for having me, Jason. Thanks.
00;01;32;05 - 00;01;37;13
Jason
Yeah, we're glad to have you. I'm glad to be here. I'm glad to be talking about thriving under pressure.
00;01;37;13 - 00;01;59;07
Jason
Before we pressed record, we were talking about how public relations has been named consistently one of the top ten most stressful positions that you can have in the United States. And I know my colleagues, both in-house and at agency side, and perhaps even especially at agency side, really feel the pressure and stress of, working in PR.
00;02;00;05 - 00;02;07;04
Jason
MJ, to talk to me about that a little bit. You said earlier that you've seen some changes in your career.
00;02;07;08 - 00;02;14;06
M.J.
Yeah. For sure. I know when I very first started practicing PR, that was about 30 years ago,
00;02;14;06 - 00;02;35;20
M.J.
and we had a much more defined audience at that time. You know, we just thought about the public, we thought about internal audiences. And I think just with the advent of technology and the changes that it has ushered in, we have so many more audiences now just online audiences and and podcasts and different websites that we're interacting with.
00;02;35;20 - 00;02;44;25
M.J.
And all the social media. There's just a lot more to pay attention to. And I think that just creates more stress for this industry.
00;02;44;27 - 00;03;07;11
Jason
Yeah, I completely agree with you. I often tell people that, you know, the the primary foundational skill sets of PR and communication hasn't changed, right? You still need to be able to communicate very well, both verbal and written. You also need to understand strategy. You need to be a trusted advisor. You need to understand how to use communication as a way to solve problems.
00;03;07;13 - 00;03;16;09
Jason
But we've got so many more tools, in our toolbox now. And we're inheriting just like our colleagues in journalism are inheriting many more platforms
00;03;16;09 - 00;03;19;15
Jason
that we have to be responsible for. So there was a time where
00;03;19;15 - 00;03;42;12
Jason
when I was a journalist, I'd show up, I'd write my story, I'd submit my story, I'd be done. Nowadays, journalists are expected to write their stories, post about it on social media, blog about it, perhaps appear on other you know, media formats like, you know, to be interviewed about their news stories that they wrote or just go on, you know, live or produce their own reels.
00;03;42;19 - 00;04;10;11
Jason
So they've kind of we've we've all become almost our own individual media companies. So, a corporation is now a media company trying to produce their own contact content. A journalist is their own media company. And then, you know, with the advent of, you know, text messaging and social media and the internet and, and now I, we have a lot more tools in our toolbox that we have to not only be on the cutting edge of learning it, but then teaching others how to use it and leveraging it for ourself.
00;04;10;11 - 00;04;32;26
Jason
So, you know, the days of being, you know, working with, a computer that could do desktop publishing, you know, and, and send out, you know, and sending news releases is has changed significantly. You and I, I've been doing this long enough to remember, probably, you know, sending your news releases through a fax machine, right?
00;04;32;26 - 00;04;33;28
M.J.
Yes, yes.
00;04;34;00 - 00;04;42;17
Jason
And, and so, you know, it's been fun to be part of the ride, but it is also obviously can be, very stressful.
00;04;42;19 - 00;04;43;23
M.J.
I agree.
00;04;43;26 - 00;05;01;15
Jason
So how do we how do we jump in to helping, public relations, communication, marketing professionals, marketing and leaders thrive under pressure? I think where we go first, perhaps, is to talk about how stress is more complex than just fight or flight.
00;05;01;17 - 00;05;07;29
M.J.
Yes. I really think, that is a key point. I think fight or flight is
00;05;07;29 - 00;05;31;08
M.J.
the response that, researcher hands selling in the 1970s came up with. And I think a lot of people are familiar with that. What he labeled that research was the general adaptation response. And what he was talking about there was that our fight or flight response is adaptive, literally, from caveman days.
00;05;31;10 - 00;06;11;00
M.J.
So if you picture, like you're sitting in your cave and a saber tooth tiger comes walking in, our adrenal glands are dumping, adrenaline to give us energy and also cortisol to thicken our blood, among other chemicals that our adrenal glands produce. So what happens is that, saber tooth tiger comes in and that adrenaline gives us the energy to either fight, like, take our club and beat the, saber tooth tiger or to run, to run out of the cave to save our family and and distract this animal.
00;06;11;03 - 00;06;32;18
M.J.
And maybe we run up a tree. So we need that energy, and the cortisol actually thickens our blood. So if that saber tooth tiger should catch up to us and take a chunk out of us, it really thickens our blood. It helps it coagulate quickly so that we don't bleed out. So it how we experience stress today is very similar.
00;06;32;18 - 00;06;59;12
M.J.
We have a very similar brain actually, that we had in caveman days. So it's no longer the saber tooth tiger. It's like the deadline that this reporter has that now becomes that stressor. So our body reacts in the same way. We're getting these chemicals from our adrenal glands that are impacting our body. And and how we how we exhibit stress symptoms.
00;06;59;15 - 00;07;28;02
M.J.
So those are the two ways that people generally think about it fight or flight. And then there's also a phrase that came out, after Han Solo's research and freeze, several researchers really have pointed to this kind of response to stress. And what it does is it's when people become kind of paralyzed and overwhelmed by stress, they might feel super hypervigilant, like what's going to happen next?
00;07;28;04 - 00;07;53;28
M.J.
So that's the third response that I see that people generally have to stress. A fourth response is something. A fourth response is something called the challenge response. And this came out of research from Kelly McGonigal, who is a psychologist at Stanford. And what she found was that this challenge response is similar to what we have when we're working out.
00;07;54;00 - 00;08;23;00
M.J.
So if we're working out and we start feeling really additional energy and our heart rate rises just like it would if we were having fight or flight. We also, though, have access to our cognitive ability so we can really think clearly and we can focus, which is unlike that fight or flight response that is more of a response of panic inducing, so that we can't think clearly.
00;08;23;06 - 00;08;44;10
M.J.
So the challenge response, as McGonigal found, was a lot more, therapeutic. It's kind of how we're thinking about it in a more healthy way. The stress is a challenge, but I'm pushing through. I'm working out really hard, and even though my body wants to stop, I'm committed to this. So it's a very different response than than fight.
00;08;44;10 - 00;09;15;17
M.J.
Like, I'm scared and I'm doing this or flight like, I got to get out of here. I've got to avoid this, this terrible thing. And then the first response that I see is, it's really interesting research that came out of UCLA. There's a researcher named Shelly Taylor, and she and her colleagues were, in a research lab, and they started noticing that every time it was a stressful environment, like something was going wrong with the research.
00;09;15;19 - 00;09;39;03
M.J.
All the men seemed to leave and go off separately, and all the women tended to stick around and make coffee and kind of comfort each other and troubleshoot what was going on. So they started looking at the research back in the day of hand selling, like what was going on with all this research because we're not really fighting or fleeing.
00;09;39;06 - 00;10;06;26
M.J.
And what they did was they really dug in to researching specifically women under stress. They found that hand cell research was like 98% of the subjects were men. So what they started doing was just researching women specifically. And their response that they identified is called tend and befriend. So the tending is like back to the caveman example.
00;10;06;26 - 00;10;32;16
M.J.
If the man runs out away from the cave in with the pursuit of the sabertooth tiger on his tail, the women are protecting the children and they're kind of tending to them. They're all getting together as a community and talking through the stressor. So I thought that was kind of interesting research that they found. It has since been re researched by many others.
00;10;32;19 - 00;10;45;20
M.J.
And they in that subsequent research, they found it's not only women. There are some men who also have this response, but it's just largely women that respond in this tandem befriend way.
00;10;45;23 - 00;10;58;29
Jason
Okay. Okay. So as I'm taking some mental notes here, I think what I'm hearing you say is the five, ways our body responds to stress is, fight flight, was the third one. Pause.
00;10;59;08 - 00;11;00;04
M.J.
Freeze.
00;11;00;06 - 00;11;01;12
Jason
Freeze. Okay.
00;11;01;15 - 00;11;03;14
M.J.
For those two.
00;11;03;16 - 00;11;04;16
Jason
What's that?
00;11;04;18 - 00;11;08;06
M.J.
Pause would also be acceptable. It's kind of in that same category.
00;11;08;08 - 00;11;23;07
Jason
Yeah. And then, challenge was the other one. And at first I wrote down the word comfort. And then you called it tend and befriend. But I felt like kind of comforting was was part of it too, maybe or community comforting.
00;11;23;09 - 00;11;30;06
M.J.
It is kind of that, they, the researchers label it tend to be friend, just like you would say, fight or flight.
00;11;30;06 - 00;11;36;28
M.J.
Right. But it's it's very much what you said. It kind of, it's a caregiving kind of response.
00;11;36;28 - 00;11;53;12
M.J.
And actually, these researchers, they found that, with the oxytocin, when our adrenal glands dump oxytocin in our systems, it's a real calming, type of, chemical.
00;11;53;15 - 00;12;23;22
M.J.
And they found that with women, estrogen actually converted that oxytocin into this calming effect, where with men the testosterone has no different effect with oxytocin. So that's some of why they started realizing that women tend to behave in this way under stress more than men. It's really their own bodies, chemicals reacting to the adrenal glands, dumping this oxytocin in.
00;12;23;24 - 00;12;32;29
Jason
I wonder if they took a look at the, chemistry makeup of the men that tend to favor, that, that same behavior.
00;12;33;02 - 00;12;43;14
M.J.
Yeah. I mean, they I don't know. And it's been really researched and they there were others who found that it was even though it was primarily female
00;12;43;14 - 00;12;54;23
M.J.
males also fell into this category, just to a lesser degree. But I have not read specifically. Jason, to your point, like what was different about the men that sullen to this?
00;12;54;24 - 00;13;16;13
Jason
Sure, sure. Well, we all have different levels and yeah, we didn't. You never know. So when you come back to the fifth one, the tend and befriend, the example I think you shared, you know, was while they were doing research, they found that the men tend to, flee or, or would that be flight?
00;13;16;13 - 00;13;18;21
Jason
Is that ultimately what they were saying? Okay. Yeah.
00;13;18;23 - 00;13;35;17
M.J.
Yeah, it's a flee or or flight. Same thing. They they just wanted to get out of there and avoid the situation. And they did not sleep together. Right. They did not go in the same direction. They all went their separate ways and then kind of regrouped and came back.
00;13;35;19 - 00;14;03;11
Jason
It sounds like typical men, All right. Well, that's very helpful. And, you know something good. I think we should all kind of think about how we naturally tend to respond to, stress. And, you know, to me, kind of a little relief that, you know, my stress seems, pale in comparison to dealing with a sabertooth tiger coming in and having to protect your loved ones, if you will, or your tribe.
00;14;03;13 - 00;14;06;24
M.J.
For sure. It is lost today, isn't it?
00;14;06;26 - 00;14;30;04
Jason
So let's talk secondly about knowing how you experience stress. I know that the physical, emotional, cognitive or mental, and how that how knowing how you experience stress can help you combat stress. You know, I've been wanting to do an episode for a while about how to deal with the high stress of this profession, and so hopefully we can dive right into this.
00;14;30;07 - 00;14;54;23
M.J.
Yeah, I would love to. I think a lot of people have symptoms of stress and they have no idea that they are symptoms. They don't think of it that way. So they think like, oh, I've got a really bad headache or I've got some stomach upset or my mouth is really dry, you know, I've got chest pains. All of those things are physiological symptoms of stress, you know, muscle tension.
00;14;56;02 - 00;15;31;10
M.J.
Rapid heartbeat. When you have trouble falling asleep, all of those things are physiological. We also then have some physical things that point to stress as well, like fatigue or having the jitters, things like that. When we get colds, a lot like people say, man, I keep getting colds. That is actually a symptom of stress. There's also some, emotional things that point to stress, like irritability, which is my favorite one, like a short temper.
00;15;31;17 - 00;15;59;02
M.J.
You know, there are things like that that physically, like, fatigue, you know, things like that physically are symptoms of stress. And then physiological or rather emotionally, those that, that irritability in that short temper. A lot of times we see that and we think, well, I'm stressed. That's why I'm having these. But some of those other symptoms I think are more elusive.
00;15;59;02 - 00;16;21;09
M.J.
And we don't attribute them directly to stress. You know, to your point about how does identifying what's going on for you, what are some of those symptoms? How does that help us combat it? It's really about looking for patterns. You know what is happening with me. I'm awfully irritated. You know, every time my mother in law comes over.
00;16;21;09 - 00;16;50;10
M.J.
So what does that mean? You know, so it helps us understand triggers if we can see these patterns. And, like, I have this upset stomach every time I go to a conference, for instance, things like that, then we know that is a sign of stress and then we can really plan for managing it. If I know every time my mother in law comes over, I'm sick to my stomach, then I can recognize she is coming.
00;16;50;10 - 00;16;56;04
M.J.
What do I do to combat that? Because I know I'm going to be going to be stressed.
00;16;56;10 - 00;17;00;15
Jason
Yeah. Is that just take a Tums or is there something more?
00;17;00;17 - 00;17;08;06
M.J.
There are lots of things that we can do, and I'm happy to share those if we want to go into some ways that we can manage our stress.
00;17;08;08 - 00;17;23;25
Jason
Yeah, absolutely. So, just to recap, so it's understanding there's five ways our body responds to stress. It's knowing how we experience stress that can help us combat it. And now I think we're jumping right into, how do we go about combating it?
00;17;24;08 - 00;17;40;20
M.J.
Yeah, I think there are ways to manage it that really go beyond the things that we typically think. You know, I think we always think about, you know, I have to exercise more. I need to eat well, I need to get enough sleep. I need to take a vacation. I think those are things that are very common
00;17;40;20 - 00;17;43;20
M.J.
in terms of how we manage stress.
00;17;43;22 - 00;18;11;11
M.J.
And I do want to talk about some things that maybe those listeners to this podcast might not think about quite so much. Okay. So one of those things is setting boundaries and that is something for me that I've worked really hard on. I was really passive during much of my adulthood. So you don't realize how much stress you're taking on when you're not sharing your thoughts and feelings with other people.
00;18;11;14 - 00;18;13;11
M.J.
And so we'll tend to,
00;18;13;11 - 00;18;34;08
M.J.
people who are more passive, like me will stuff stuff, stuff, all their feelings, and then they'll come out in ways that are not helpful to us. So dealing with things as they occur and addressing those things, setting appropriate boundaries and really being more assertive can help with stress.
00;18;36;09 - 00;18;46;06
Jason
Okay. That's I feel a little bit called out because I do very well. Right. I, I kind of bottle it up, keep it to myself and that kind of thing.
00;18;46;06 - 00;18;55;14
Jason
This episode is brought to you by Audible. Enjoy 30 days free of Audible Premium Plus by going to ontopofpr.com/audible.
00;18;55;14 - 00;19;20;03
Announcer
You're listening to On Top of PR with your host, Jason Mudd. Jason is a trusted advisor to some of America's most admired and fastest growing brands. He is the managing partner at Axia Public Relations, a PR agency that guides news, social and web strategies for national companies. And now, back to the show.
00;19;20;03 - 00;19;28;13
Jason
So, you mentioned previously, you know, that, managing stress beyond exercise, healthy eating and taking vacations, right? And so those all sound like good ways to manage stress.
00;19;28;13 - 00;19;45;19
Jason
You know what I keep hearing from other podcast and other, you know, content creators is the idea of, you know, sleep being undervalued and maybe staying hydrated. You know, what are some other ways we can manage stress beyond those things that we hear so much about?
00;19;45;22 - 00;20;11;28
M.J.
Yes. I think one of the things that that I tell clients all the time to do is journaling. I don't know if you've ever tried journaling, Jason, but some of my clients have never attempted it. And journaling has a lot of health benefits. It lowers your blood pressure. It increases your immunity levels, which we all need with, all of the germs going around these days.
00;20;12;05 - 00;20;40;08
M.J.
So it has a lot of health effects. And I am a firm believer that if you journal and the way I'm talking about journaling is writing down our thoughts and feelings, deciding on paper how we're going to address some of those problems in our lives. Those are the journaling aspects that really help us mitigate stress. And then also, you can change your thoughts.
00;20;40;11 - 00;21;12;24
M.J.
So I know, in the speaking that I do, I often talk about cognitive behavioral psychology, which is, you know, how our mind impacts the things that we do. How we think about things leads to our behavior. So ultimately, if I'm stressed and let's say I'm having anxiety or fear or worry or whatever, you want to label it, if I'm having that emotion, the emotion is actually coming from my thoughts.
00;21;12;27 - 00;21;35;12
M.J.
So to control our thoughts is a very healthy way to stop stressors from coming. If we control what we're thinking or how we're thinking about it, it creates an emotion that is more positive and we will in turn behave in ways that are more helpful to us. Typically.
00;21;35;14 - 00;21;52;23
Jason
Yeah, I've become a big believer of that. I've also heard, and I hope I don't misquoted on the spot here, but what is it? Thoughts become, emotions or feelings and feelings and emotions become actions and actions become results.
00;21;53;13 - 00;21;54;09
M.J.
Yes.
00;21;54;11 - 00;22;22;23
Jason
So that's a concept that I've recently heard or started looking into and kind of shifting my own, you know, mindset. And the other thing I heard is that, your subconscious mind, you know, obviously influences your conscious mind, and your subconscious mind can't discern truth from, from, from fiction. And so if you, you know, do what a lot of people call that, affirmations.
00;22;22;23 - 00;22;45;03
Jason
If you do a lot of affirmations and you can convince your subconscious mind very easily, apparently, to believe something that then can influence your conscious mind to believe, it as well, or that it's true. So these are kind of new concepts to me at least. And, you know, and certainly journaling can play, you know, an important role in that as well.
00;22;45;05 - 00;23;10;12
M.J.
I'm so glad you brought up affirmations. That is a really excellent tool. And again, one that I don't think, is used all that often. So definitely we can create sentences. How you write them is to create a sentence in the first person saying what you hope to be, as though it is fact already. Yeah. So it's exactly what you said.
00;23;10;14 - 00;23;33;06
M.J.
And you can write these out and recite them during the day. I used to back in the 80s, I learned about affirmations, and I used to keep them on three by fives in my purse, and I would drag it out while I'm waiting for an appointment and read through them. But they definitely work because I know for me, over time I would end up crossing out the ones that were just wrote.
00;23;33;08 - 00;23;36;09
M.J.
They just became part of who I am and how I write.
00;23;36;11 - 00;23;36;27
Jason
How about that?
00;23;36;28 - 00;23;41;26
M.J.
So they really do work over time. That's an excellent suggestion.
00;23;41;28 - 00;24;05;12
Jason
So MJ is somebody who's listening or watching this episode and they're hearing what we're sharing with them and they're finding value in it. What would be your prescription and or recommendation for them? You know, it's kind of the next steps if they're like, you know what, I liked what MJ talked about. You know, should they? So the first thing they do start journaling, like where would you encourage them to get started?
00;24;05;14 - 00;24;39;29
M.J.
I love the thought of having them journal. I like I said, I recommend that to every coaching client that I have. Also, I do want to share the flip of metacognition, which just thinking about your thinking, the flip of that is if you don't want to start from the inside, is starting from the outside. There's a really interesting researcher named Amy Cuddy, and she talks about how we position our body, also giving us confidence and taking away some of those stress hormones that are in our body.
00;24;40;06 - 00;25;00;10
M.J.
So even posing in ways that are powerful. And some of your listeners may have heard about this already, but they call it like the Superman pose when you're standing with your head up and your hands, you know it's this on your side. So you can do that stuff externally. And it has the same effect as you were talking about.
00;25;00;10 - 00;25;23;18
M.J.
Jason from the metacognition, deciding how to think and putting thoughts in our head, making our bodies pose in certain ways can also influence our brain. It's thinking, wow, she must be really confident. Her head is high and she, you know, looking really confident. So I would say all of these different steps that we're talking about that could be taken.
00;25;23;20 - 00;25;52;02
M.J.
Choose one is what my suggestion would be. Choose one way that you think resonates with you that you can try to incorporate into your life. So be it. Journaling, which by the way, I have a really cool handout that I sometimes give when I speak on journaling. I'm happy to share that or the setting boundaries I. In my third book, I talk about how to have a sort of conversations with people.
00;25;52;04 - 00;26;11;23
M.J.
So like I would just choose one and say, this is the thing that I'm going to try for the next month or so and see if that starts working for you. See how you feel, because you're not going to be able to measure it. Like we PR people like to measure things. You're not going to be like 20% more confident, right?
00;26;11;25 - 00;26;23;20
M.J.
But you will feel it. You know, you'll feel it in your bones. You'll start to, you know, share your thoughts and feelings more, for instance. And you'll know that that your efforts are working well.
00;26;23;20 - 00;26;42;17
Jason
We would love to share that handout in our episode notes. So if you'll do share, we'll we'll certainly, be thrilled to do that. Thank you for offering it. I want to ask you about your new book, and then I want to ask you maybe a couple of questions that are, a little tangential to our conversation today.
00;26;42;28 - 00;26;43;26
M.J.
Absolutely.
00;26;45;15 - 00;26;49;18
Jason
You've got a book called Leading Through Listening. Tell us more about that.
00;26;50;03 - 00;27;23;15
M.J.
It's really about assertive communication and specifically for communicators. So people, marketing experts, internal comms folks, it's really about how we as communicators like to talk and organize and be right in it. And sometimes we are not the best at listening. And I really feel like communication begins with listening in that way, we learn so much more about other people.
00;27;23;17 - 00;28;01;09
M.J.
That really creates a much more functional response to them. We're really communicating better and more with more clarity when we understand more about them. So that's really the premise of the book. There are things in there about it, as I said, assertive communication. There's some journaling, items in there. There's a little bit about technology. It's it's really for communicators to think about, their approach to communication and hopefully how they have evolved over time and continue to get better at that.
00;28;01;12 - 00;28;21;05
Jason
Okay. Nice. Nice. So, I mentioned I'm going to ask you a couple of questions there. I'm kind of pulling these from your bio, but you said you you coach executives to help them keep others accountable. Any just kind of quick tips are are high level recommendations for how to do that better.
00;28;21;07 - 00;28;51;19
M.J.
I think people can't make people be accountable. So maybe some people like to disagree with us, but I honestly think accountability is something that's in each of us so we can influence and inspire, which I think are true leadership traits. And that's how we get people more accountable when we listen well, when we trust. So we assign them things and allow them to fail in small ways.
00;28;51;19 - 00;29;16;15
M.J.
If they're going to do that so they can learn. And if we don't micromanage, but do some follow up and have discussions with them about, is this the appropriate amount of follow up? Do you feel if you feel like I'm constantly asking where projects are, maybe it would work better if you come to me with updates on a regular basis instead of me coming to you.
00;29;16;17 - 00;29;28;13
M.J.
So I think it's a lot about accountability, is a lot about communication and being a safe place for them to ask questions, but not so much something we can enforce.
00;29;29;05 - 00;29;48;04
Jason
Okay. Yeah. That's a that's interesting. I'll have to think through that a little bit. And then the other thing I want to ask you about was about being more assertive. I have had some conversations with my own team. You know when we're working with clients, they are genuinely looking for us to be trusted advisors and expert advisors to them.
00;29;48;06 - 00;30;11;00
Jason
And sometimes in all the noise and the busyness of of the business world, I feel like they don't fully hear us, you know? And so I've, I've kind of encouraged my team to be, you know, to take the lead and being more assertive and make sure that you're not, you know, through body language or just passive communication, agreeing with something that you fundamentally don't agree with.
00;30;11;02 - 00;30;36;13
Jason
And being supportive enough to make it clear that, say, you know, I'm hearing you say, I want to be clear that I don't agree with A, and I think B is a better option or something like that. And some people don't want you to, you know, disagree with them. They're looking for people to agree. But we still have to be that advisor who, you know, guides them through difficult situations or conversations.
00;30;37;04 - 00;30;46;13
Jason
So any tips on someone who might not feel comfortable, being assertive, but they're being asked or challenged to be more assertive?
00;30;46;15 - 00;31;12;12
M.J.
Yes. I think, people who help and want to say yes are an epidemic in our industry. I think we're loaded with people who really want to serve. And it's a double edged sword for sure. So I think we always think, you know, the client's always right, and they're not necessarily always right. So how do we help them?
00;31;12;12 - 00;31;28;06
M.J.
The best way we know how. And sometimes it is, politely disagreeing. So in my book I talk about, three step process to having an assertive conversation. And I'd be happy to share that if you think it would help your listeners.
00;31;28;09 - 00;31;29;23
Jason
Oh, yeah, I think so.
00;31;29;25 - 00;32;03;12
M.J.
So step one is describe that person's behavior. And I usually use the words I've noticed dot dot, dot. So let's say we're talking to a client who, wants to put out a press release that you think would be harmful to them. So I've noticed that you feel really strongly about this press release, and you want us to send it, despite our counsel, that we not.
00;32;03;14 - 00;32;36;21
M.J.
So you're just laying out the facts. They know that you've had this conversation. You know what? They know it. So there's no surprise. Right. So step one is designed to not get reactivity out of someone. Step two is saying how you feel. And you can say something like when this happens I am concerned, I feel worried, I am confused, I thought we agreed on this other thing and now I'm hearing that you want to go back to this, initial proposal.
00;32;36;23 - 00;32;59;03
M.J.
So step two is also designed to not get any kickback because you're sharing how you feel. So no one gets to tell us how to feel. So sometimes people will push back that that on us. They'll say, well oh my gosh MJ, you're making a mountain out of a molehill. You shouldn't feel this way. And I just say, well, I do, right?
00;32;59;05 - 00;33;19;05
M.J.
And that's why we're having this conversation. So step three is asking for what you want instead. So you could say instead of sending the press release that you're talking about here and that you feel strongly about, could we tweak just this one sentence so that we both feel comfortable with sending it out?
00;33;20;16 - 00;33;32;05
Jason
So it sounds like you're describing good communication and the necessity of compromising on the items that are not, you know, the most important.
00;33;32;08 - 00;33;49;10
M.J.
It could be compromise. Or that third step could be if you really feel strongly about it, saying, I would ask that you trust us to send out the press release that we think will be most helpful to you in this situation, and here's why we think it's the right move. Yeah.
00;33;49;12 - 00;34;10;01
Jason
Well, and, you know, oftentimes we're being hired because we're the experts, right? And we're being asked to guide and to lead them. And then, and then at, sometimes at the 11th hour, you know, someone has a strong preference that might differentiate from what the experts are saying. And, you know, usually I, I try to yield to my experts.
00;34;10;01 - 00;34;16;16
Jason
Right? I paid them well to advise me. And if they have the expertise, I should I should yield to that expertise. So.
00;34;16;19 - 00;34;47;20
M.J.
Yeah. Well, and I love what you said about just being confident in the room as well. There's a lot about, just taking up space, having an open posture or having your things around you. You know, taking up space looks more confident. So even small, subtle body language things could help in in a meeting like that with clients where you are trying to convince, or inspire them to go in a slightly different direction than they're looking at.
00;34;47;23 - 00;35;10;21
Jason
Yes. And I remind my team, you know, that, hey, we're the trusted expert advisors that they've hired to give them advice. And, you know, it's a mutually beneficial relationship, meaning they're compensating us to provide that counsel in exchange for that compensation. We're providing them with value. And so there's not an inferior or superior relationship here or, or subordinate relationship.
00;35;10;24 - 00;35;35;27
Jason
You know, we're professional colleagues and peers, and we need to treat each other with mutual respect and understanding. So I think that's important too, because oftentimes people will want to position it as, you know, a, a, a, a vendor relationship or something like that where it's it's, inferior or, you know, subordinate relationship. But, you know, the truth is that, you know, we're providing a valuable service and they're compensating us with, corresponding value.
00;35;35;27 - 00;35;42;09
Jason
So, kind of important, I think, for us to remind ourselves and avoid the imposter syndrome. Right.
00;35;42;11 - 00;35;44;23
M.J.
I could not agree more. Yeah.
00;35;44;26 - 00;35;55;01
Jason
So your new book, Leading Through listening. If our audience wants to, acquire this book, how do they go best about doing that?
00;35;55;16 - 00;36;04;00
M.J.
It's on Amazon, but I would be very happy to provide free electronic copies to anybody who might like those, so.
00;36;04;00 - 00;36;06;20
Jason
Oh, goodness, that's a great offer. Thank you.
00;36;06;23 - 00;36;07;16
M.J.
You bet.
00;36;07;18 - 00;36;10;02
Jason
Yeah. How would they go about doing that?
00;36;10;05 - 00;36;23;09
M.J.
So, there is a link that I can provide you if you want to put it in the notes when this podcast goes live. And I don't have it memorized, so I can't.
00;36;23;11 - 00;36;46;24
Jason
Be great at this. We'll get it from you offline. No problem. Okay. Well, that's very kind of you. Thank you for doing that. And, my next question was ultimately so we've talked about some of your coaching and training programs, your consulting, coaching and training programs. If someone is interested in pursuing that with you, what's the best way for them to reach out to you and learn more about, the services that you offer?
00;36;46;26 - 00;36;58;18
M.J.
The best way is really just to email me. I'm very responsive. So my email address is Jay at Integrated leader.com.
00;36;58;21 - 00;37;14;17
Jason
Got it okay MJ at integrated leader.com. Perfect. Well that sounds good. They can also find you on LinkedIn with a username of MJ Clark 22 on LinkedIn. And probably another way that they could reach you.
00;37;14;19 - 00;37;15;10
M.J.
Yes.
00;37;15;12 - 00;37;33;27
Jason
Okay. Perfect. All right. Well, MJ, this has been a great episode. I really enjoyed the topic. You reminded me of some of the practices that I have and share with others, as well as new practices that I might want to consider adopting. So we appreciate you sharing your smarts and your insight today. Helping our audience stay on top of PR.
00;37;33;29 - 00;37;35;19
M.J.
Thanks for having me. This was fun.
00;37;35;26 - 00;37;50;07
Jason
Yeah, it was fun. And it's good to see you again. I know last time our roles were reversed, where I was doing some, teaching for a class that you were doing. So I appreciate the opportunity to, have you be on the spotlight today.
00;37;50;09 - 00;37;51;22
M.J.
Thanks, I appreciate that.
00;37;51;29 - 00;38;01;14
Jason
Yeah, well, with that, this has been another episode of On Top of PR. As always, if you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to share it with a friend or colleague who you think would benefit from it, and allow them the opportunity to also stay on top of PR. Thank you for watching.
00;38;01;14 - 00;38;57;04
Announcer
This has been On Top of PR with Jason Mudd presented by ReviewMaxer. Be sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode and check out past episodes at ontopofpr.com.
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About your host Jason Mudd
On Top of PR host, Jason Mudd, is a trusted adviser and dynamic strategist for some of America’s most admired brands and fastest-growing companies. Since 1994, he’s worked with American Airlines, Budweiser, Dave & Buster’s, H&R Block, Hilton, HP, Miller Lite, New York Life, Pizza Hut, Southern Comfort, and Verizon. He founded Axia Public Relations in July 2002. Forbes named Axia as one of America’s Best PR Agencies.
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