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Leadership tips with Ken Jacobs | On Top of PR podcast

By On Top of PR

On Top of PR podcast: Leadership tips with guest Ken Jacobs and show host Jason Mudd episode graphicLearn these four tips to help lead you through uncertain times with our guest Ken Jacobs.



Our episode guest is Ken Jacobs PCC, CPC, owner and principal of Jacobs Consulting & Executive Coaching. Ken is an experienced certified coach, who helps corporate (and agency) leaders, senior executives, and managers, usually in the public relations, marketing, advertising, and/or related communications functions, achieve and surpass their organizational, career, and personal goals.



The one with Ken Jacobs on how you can be an effective leader in continuing uncertain times



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Five things you’ll learn from this episode:

  1. How to switch from a “challenge” mindset to an “opportunity” mindset

  2. Improving your emotional intelligence 

  3. How to be more transparent

  4. Setting high standards for your own leadership

  5. Taking care of yourself as a leader


  • “Followers have always followed courage and optimism. Your followers can be your team members, peers, your boss, or your stakeholders. Internal and external. We all have the ability to lead, to create outcomes that are good for all of us.” — @KensViews

  • “The core definition of leadership to me is, ‘I have the ability to influence positive outcomes both in myself and in others.’”— @KensViews

  • “You can only take care of your employees if you're taking care of yourself.” — @KensViews

  • “I know it may not feel like it now, but fear is a choice. What if you chose courage? What would that feel like?” — @KensViews

  • “If you can inspire, employees will self motivate.” — @KensViews

If you enjoyed the episode, would you please leave us a review?


About Ken Jacobs:

Ken is an experienced certified coach, who helps corporate (and agency) leaders, senior executives and managers, usually in the public relations, marketing, advertising, and/or related communications functions, achieve and surpass their organizational, career, and personal goals. We do so by helping them become more inspired, inspiring and effective leaders.


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Presented by: ReviewMaxer, the platform for monitoring, improving and promoting online customer reviews.




- Hello, welcome. I'm Jason Mudd, your host for "On Top of PR," and today we've got a great episode. Our guest is Ken Jacobs. He is a leadership coach, and one of honestly the nicest people that I know in the business, and today he's sharing some tips on emotional intelligence, transparency, setting standards and taking care of yourself as a leader. I think you're going to really enjoy this episode. I know I did, and I'm glad you're here tuning in, and without any further ado, here we go.


- [Announcer] Welcome to "On Top of PR," with Jason Mudd, presented by ReviewMaxer.


- Hello, and welcome to another episode of "On Top of PR." I'm your host, Jason Mudd. And I'm joined by who I think is one of the nicest guys in the entire public relations business, and that is Ken Jacobs. Ken, welcome to the show. How are you doing?


- Thank you so much. I want to return the comment, and also I was in the agency business for many years. I think I got a little nicer when I left it, and serve the PR community. That's not a dig at the PR community, it's just that, that I realized I wasn't meant to stay on my agency trajectory, and instead serve corporate and agency PR and marketing leaders. So I think that's helped me. So you met me after that. So I think maybe that helped me get a little nicer.

- Well, it's definitely tough when you own and or run your own business, but I'm glad you're here, and I'm glad we're able to do this interview together. We've been talking about it for awhile, and I think you're exactly right. I think your experience will be very relevant to the corporate marketers, and corporate communicators that are our typical audience for this podcast and vodcast. So thank you for joining us today. Speaking of your background, why don't you give us two or three sentences, kind of who you are, what you do, and then we'll just dive right into the conversation.


- Yeah, so right now I help PR marketing, communications, advertising, you name it, leaders and executives achieve and surpass their goals by becoming more inspired, more inspiring, more effective leaders. And we do that through executive coaching, and they are in the corporate world, the agency world, what have you, but they tend to share that communications background. Previously, I spent 25 plus years in the PR consumer marketing agency business, mostly in management and leadership. And so your viewers who were from the corporate PR and marketing side were my clients. So it's good to talk to all of you again.


- Yeah, absolutely. Well, full circle and, you know kind of like a 360 degrees of counsel and wisdom and experience.


- You're very kind.


- That's great, Ken. So you and I first met at a PRSA event in New Orleans, and you are my buddy and helped me-


- Big buddy.


- And you introduced me to other people who were attending since I was my first time attending. And I remember just how accommodating you were, and helpful you were, thoughtful, and proactively introducing me to people. So now's my chance to put you on our platform and introduce you to our audience, Ken. So today we're talking about leadership and I know we've gone kind of back and forth on on the best title for this. But, you know, we are an unusual times, and hopefully things will return to a little bit more normal, but many of us are also speculating that normal is going to be relative, and we're always going to live in interesting times. I know the PR profession is constantly evolving. One of the reasons why we created this podcast was to help corporate marketers, corporate communicators stay on top of PR and how it's moving and changing and new trends and tips and techniques. And I've argued for years that the fundamentals haven't changed, but the channels and platform and ways to reach your audience are constantly evolving. And it's becoming, I think candidly a more challenging of a space to be in as newsrooms are shrinking, demand for customer attention, time and dollars are at an all time high. And how do you say, reaching audiences has never been more direct, but also more fragmented, and people have little patience. so you've got to really focus on them and bring them value and do so quickly because their attention spans are decreasing, and they're being pulled in multiple directions.


- Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I tell you, while there is greater opportunity and channels and all those things today, it is far more challenging than when I left the business around 2006, 2007. I mean, I enjoy just being outside and vicariously in it having clients in the business, but man , and then this year, who knows? Who ever anticipated this? It's just beyond anything. And I think that, you know, I heard you say something, I think you talked about uncertain, and I think it can be very helpful wherever we find ourselves leading, if you replace saying it's challenging, it's taxing, you put yourself in a mindset of, well now you're already challenged. And if you can free yourself to say these are uncertain times, and acknowledge that, it really opens things up, and I think if you can go a step further and think of them as times that create opportunity. You're not going to negatively take advantage of this anyone, but if you can open up yourself to an opportunity mindset, you will, and your teams, I believe can get through this smarter, better, better outcomes. We don't know what that normal will be. We don't know when it will be, but I do know the opportunity mindset will help us all.


- That's great, I really like that. And so no matter where you are in life, you could even be outside of this PR or marketing profession, and that is still extremely relevant. And it is, it's about, you know a lot of people in the PR business talk about spin or outside of the PR business, they talk about spin, but to me it's about positioning and how you position it. And you're right. If you think about it more as an opportunity, and/or perhaps more opportunistic that just has a much more positive vibe than unique or challenging times, for sure. So that you're already on a roll giving out great advice here, Ken.


- And I think if you look at it, I think if you look at organizations that are pivoting for the times, they're seeing benefits as a result. So that ability to pivot, can be an organizational mindset. It can be in the culture, and it's gotta be in the leaders, because if you as a leader have that view, we will get through this, there's opportunity here. I don't know where we're going, but I have a vision for where we're going to go, and I need you in the boat with me. Your followers will follow that. Followers have always followed courage. Followers have always followed optimism. So if we can believe that and bring it, and your followers can be your team members, your followers can be your peers. Your follower can be your boss, your stakeholders, you know internal and external. We all have the ability to lead, to create outcomes that are good for all of us. And when you look at leadership that way, not that I'm the CEO or just the CEO or just the head of the department, or just at the top of the org chart. But I have the ability to influence positive outcomes both in myself and in others, that to me is the core definition of leadership and and we all can use it.


- Absolutely. Well, I have the pleasure at least I would think about annually, catching one of your presentations on leadership. And that's what we're here to talk about today. And you're already doing a great job of sharing that content. But, you know, I think a good opportunity for us to connect today, just to kind of talk through some of your leadership principles, and and maybe you prefer another word beyond principles, but typically I know you've got kind of a set number of pillars that you like to talk about in leadership. And so I was hoping we could highlight some of those today, and then provide some resources in our show notes so people can click and actually connect with you and learn more about your leadership coaching and your coaching platform.


- Great. Well, usually three is really good, because it's easy to remember, but I I want to share four today, time allowing.


- [Jason] Sure, let's do it.


- So the four, I think of them as tips that will help you lead through these continuing uncertain times. Let me give a little background. I think a lot of people were charged up by March, April, May. Many of us and many of your viewers went into crisis mode and that energized them, and they were able to energize their troops. And so we went through March, April, May, and then the summer set in. And I think if you have folks on your team or your peers who have school-aged children, I mean the whole debates of August, will we open, when, virtual, blended, in-person? And I've observed, I'm in touch with a lot of leaders and managers who do have school-aged children. No one seems very happy. You know, if you've got the kids at home, you want them in the classroom. If they're in the classroom, you'd rather have them at home. So people I think are a bit exhausted. And as we accept this, we'll be here for a while. That can be exhausting. So I'm gonna think of it as four tips to help you lead through continuing uncertain times. Number one, improve your emotional intelligence or EI. Number two, be more transparent. Number three, set high standards for your own leadership, and four, take care of yourself. So that's the four I'd like to explore today, time allowing.


- Sure, would you run through those four one more time, because I know I like to take notes when I'm listening to podcasts.


- Sure, number one, improve your emotional intelligence, your EI. Two, be more transparent. Three, set high standards for your own leadership, and four, take care of yourself.


- Absolutely, that's good. That's real good. I hear a lot of talk about leaders taking care of themselves. And I think my peers, other agency leaders, I know that we're asked or voluntarily sacrifice a lot, and I see that in a lot of busy executives and clients that we work with, right? They're already working all the time and not taking care of themselves, and then this happens where you're working arguably more, getting paid potentially less, depending on your search situation. Then you got kids at home that you're like you said, virtual schooling them while they're not in school, kind of thing. And so, yeah, and I've seen that with many of our clients especially the CMO level, they were already overwhelmed. And next thing you know, they've got a seven and a nine year old or other ages at home that they're helping them get their schoolwork done throughout the day, and also maintaining their workload. So that one really resonates with me, and I hear a lot of people talking about that.


- You wanna start with that one. I can do it any way you want.


- Yeah, let's do it.


- Let's start with that. Maybe that's the first place we should start. So we think of taking care of yourself. It's the same ideas when you're on the airplane, and they say put the oxygen mask on your traveling companion, the child, or the senior citizen. Sorry, I got it wrong. Put your own mask on first, before you put it on your traveling companion, whether you're a child or a senior citizen. You've got to have the oxygen flowing to take care of them. And your cup has to be full to support them. That is just so important. And so whether for you that means yoga or mindfulness or meditation, or being outdoors, or going on walks or physical exercise, if it ever was important, those are absolutely essential now. If you started doing those things maybe March, April, May, as many people did, and then have cut back. I mean some did it years ago and they stopped, and some did it March, April, May, and then stopped. Some never did it. If you take one thing away from this vodcast, please actively take care of yourself, with all those things that I mentioned. It is more important now than ever. I'm a big proponent of servant leadership, leader is servant. You can only take care of them if you're taking care of yourself. And there is nothing selfish about it. In fact, it is the opposite of selfishness. And on that topic, if your mind goes to, well, have I led enough? Have I led correctly? Was I there for everyone? Self-forgiveness is so important now. I believe everyone watching this vodcast is doing the best they can with the leadership tools they have, for a leadership situation of which there is no playbook. There is no playbook. Know you're really doing as good as you can. And if you're not sure you're doing as well as you can, start with the self care. It will pay all kinds of benefits, no doubt.


- Well, it sounds like we started at a good point. And in order to get through the other three, let's start with, with EQ or EI as you called it, the emotional intelligence, which is candidly an area in my life that I've had to work on. But before we do that, let's take a quick break and come back on the other side with the other three tenants that you're going to share with us, Ken.


- Sure.


- [Announcer] You're listening to "On Top of PR," with your host, Jason Mudd. Jason is a trusted advisor to some of America's most admired and fastest growing brands. He is the managing partner at Axia Public Relations, a PR agency that guides news, social, and web strategies for national companies. And now back to the show.

- And welcome back, I'm with Ken Jacobs, one of my good friends in the industry, and someone who is always helpful when it comes to thinking about leadership. Ken has already told us that we have to take care of ourself first. Now we're beginning to talk about emotional intelligence. And I was confessing before the break that this is an area I've learned that I need to improve upon and have been working in this area for the last three, four or five years, and getting better by 1% every day is my goal. So anyway, Ken talk to us a little bit more about the importance of this.


- Yeah, it is so important to leading effectively. And we throw around the term emotional intelligence, EI, EQ. Let me just give you a definition. According to the Gottman Institute, it gives you the ability to accurately perceive your own and other's emotions, understand the signals that emotions send about relationships, and manage your own and others' emotions. Now, I don't know that we can manage others' emotions, but we do better when we manage our own. And let me be very clear. This is not some let's all join hands and sing "Kumbaya." It is very real. According to the Harvard Business School, emotional intelligence accounts for nearly 90% of what sets high performers apart from their peers who have similar technical skills and knowledge, 90%. And many of you have seen Google had a similar study. Why are some of our folks doing so well? Stellar careers, leadership, leadership, inspiration, all those good things. Even at Google, it wasn't that they had better technological knowledge or skills. They had emotional intelligence. That's just too big to ignore. If you want to be effective, you have to understand and improve their EI. Now, many leaders that I coach have said to me I wish I could remove emotion from the office. I think that's dead wrong. I think they were thinking of the emotions they perceive as negative. The tears, the anger, but emotions run the gamut, and emotions can be positive and include feeling inspired and pumped and all those good things. So instead, celebrate that you get to lead emotional beings, emotional human beings, and then emotion becomes a tool by which you can lead better. Can I tell you a little more about EI?


- Of course.


- Okay, so the best way to learn about it is to get "Emotional Intelligence 2.0," by Travis Bradberry and Jean Greaves, G-R-E-A-V-E-S. I have no relationship with them, but you get the book. It's very short, it's very small. And when you get it, you get in the back inside page, you can take the assessment online. So I took the assessment, it took like five minutes. So I was being very cynical about it. And Jason, you know me, I'm not as cynical guy, but I was cynical. How could they size me up in five minutes? And then my report spewed out two minutes later. So I'm on full cynical alert. And I read my assessment, and it's like they got inside, they got me here, they got me there. It was shocking. There were a number of things I knew about me and emotional intelligence, but there were a number of watch outs for me where I had to do more development, and it and the book offers such practical tools to help me do better in two of my four quadrants. So simple, practical, accurate. I can't recommend it enough.


- Perfect, well we'll be sure to put a link to that book in the show notes, and if we're smooth enough, maybe we'll put a link to the assessment as well so that others can check that out. Otherwise they can get the book and find the assessment and do it from there, but that's a great recommendation. The next thing you mentioned was transparency, which is of course, all of these are among my favorite, but I think transparency might be at the top as not only have I learned in my career the importance of emotional intelligence, I've also learned the importance of integrity and transparency, because people do business with who they like, know, and trust. And I've realized that, no matter how entrepreneurial or opportunistic you are, you have to be transparent. You have to have high integrity or else it'll take forever to overcome that. And many of us know Warren Buffet is credited to the saying "It takes 20 years to build a reputation, and just a few minutes to ruin it." And so we preach about integrity all the time. As a leader, I'm talking about integrity often, and I'm asking my people, "Where has been a situation where I or my integrity have let you down?" And, you know, they kind of roll their eyes when I ask 'cause they're like you haven't, but I want to give them an opportunity to do it, to speak candidly and speak up when and if anything has ever let them down. 'Cause I think that's just important, and that's how I find the accountability is if I'm asking people on the regular how have I let you down, when has my integrity not been spot on? And I know I'm going to ask them that, and I might not like the answer. So, but talk to us about transparency.


- Transparency here especially is about sharing news, sharing the good, the bad, the in between. If you're already doing this, keep at it. Obviously other than confidential data like someone's salaries or you know, something like that. But you know, if you're doing it, keep at it, do more of it. If you're skeptical or fearful about this, please stay open-minded to what I'm about to tell you because these few points might change your mind. Now, many of us are fearful of sharing data or sharing bad news because we're afraid it's going to scare our people and they won't be able to function. Would you believe the Neuroleadership Institute found amazing benefits of doing so, and the last one's just gonna really surprise you. It boosts employee engagement and performance. You will be seen as a more trustworthy and more effective leader. And it's a great predictor of employee happiness. They'll be happier. But again, the biggest surprise is that when leaders share information they reveal the reasons behind decisions, and express their true feelings and vulnerabilities. Now, I don't think that includes sharing fear, but if they're willing to share the bad news, the vulnerabilities, it instills a sense of psychological safety. Can you imagine that? If you share it all, it instills a sense of psychological safety. And after this six months we've had, and the six months we may have, what's more important than instilling a sense of psychological safety to our people? I've always believed this, but I started researching this and I was so glad I did. Can I share some more data points about this from another source?


- Yes, but first I want to ask you why you don't recommend sharing your fears?


- Ah, good point. Because followers follow courage, followers follow bravery, and then when we show our fear, it's upsetting, it's unsettling for our followers. So think about it. Did Churchill have fears? Did FDR, did Lincoln, did Harriet Tubman, did Malala? I mean the list, whoever, MLK, Nelson Mandela. did they have fear? Yes, but they never, they shared it maybe with their spouse or their dog or whatever the case may be.


- [Jason] Or maybe with a very small group.


- Yeah, one of those put your game face on, and find your peer group with whom you may share your fear. That's different. That's an external group. But with your people, this feeling of, I know we can get through it. I see a path. I need you in the boat with me rowing with me. And if you're really courageous, you say and if the path isn't right, we're smart people. We'll pivot, we'll figure something else. But followers, peers, bosses are attracted to courage. So I think vulnerability, saying I don't know where we're going, immediately pivoting to but here's what I do think will help us. So yeah, I would share all that, but not fear. I think if they did the study around fear, you'd have a different outcome. You wouldn't have that higher level of employee engagement or you necessarily being seen as more trustworthy because it's just, she's afraid, he's afraid. Well, I should be afraid, right?


- Right. I think also we could think about, whether you're the CMO or the CEO or the head of PR, or the PR director, vice-president of whatever, everybody needs a confidant or a coach. And that could be someone like you Ken, where they do go to and share their fears. And maybe it's a peer in another department or something like that. So I get what you're saying. And I think there's a balance between, as we talked about the transparency, and not sharing your fear, but everybody needs somebody. It's lonely on your own. And so if you're listening to this, you do need to share your fears with somebody. It just might not be somebody who in the org chart reports to you, for example, as you're mentioning, so that's good.


- Or even a peer or your own leader. And you know, if you work with a coach, a good coach, a certified coach, an experienced coach hopefully will say I know it may not feel like it now, but fear is a choice. What if you chose courage? What would that feel like?


- Wow, that's powerful.


- What would your thoughts be? You're right now experiencing fearful thoughts, fearful emotions, which may lead to fearful actions. What are some courageous thoughts for now? What are some brave emotions? What action would you take if you, and you know sometimes you want to say if you were a 100% fearless, but no, no, no, then I'm bringing up the F-word. I'm bringing up fear. I don't want to even say that word. I work to say, what if you were just completely brave-


- and confident.


- What would you do? And I hear people during a call, 'cause most of my coaching work is on the phone even these days. And I hear them calm down, and I hear them get brave. And it's one of the joys of coaching. It's one of the most fulfilling moments.


- Yeah, of course, absolutely. I love to mentor and develop people and just watch them blossom in that nurturing environment for sure. You had one more thing you wanted to talk about transparency and then we were going to move on to standards. So real quick, what is that?


- Yeah, some of the other benefits, this is a combination from Hiver and BambooHR. Being more transparent fosters a collaborative work environment. It improves employee empowerment, who doesn't want that? Strengthened workplace culture, increased employee engagement, improved communication. But here are two that may surprise you. When an organization and a leader is being more transparent, it improves customer relations, and an improved bottom line. Who would have thought it? I hope we've given you a lot of reasons to believe and to be more transparent.


- Yes, we've done an episode with my friend Richard Hadden who wrote "Contented Cows Give Better Milk." And his whole story is exactly that, that he studied the most profitable companies in America, and hands down they all had strong culture, high employee engagement. And when he discovered that research, as you mentioned earlier, he pivoted, and said this is where I'm, you know, this is the path I'm going on is to help companies improve their bottom line by having higher employee engagement. Not because the pursuit of higher profits is a bad thing or a good thing, but because it's the right thing to be good to your shareholders, but also to be good to your employees. And if the two can work together, why not solve that?


- And this is one of those moments when you hear something or read something, write it down, bookmark it, save it, whatever. Because I believe I heard years ago there was some research that companies that had this transparency had higher stock prices, better performance. And I wish I'd written it. If any of you reach out to me and tell me where that research exists, I heard it once. And I want to add this to this dialogue.


- Well definitely check out Richard, 'cause that's what they write about.


- Great recommendation.


- Okay, and so last, but definitely not least is probably what we should have gone with first which of course standards, and having standards, yeah.


- You know, I think in this, while on one hand, yes. Be forgiving to yourself and how you're leading, but set the bar high, set that standard high. If not every day, every week, ask yourself questions like how would my team or my followers grade me as a leader this week? Did I demonstrate that I have their backs, and I earned their trust? Did I let them know that I trust them back? Did I consistently communicate respect to everyone, even when I needed to have a direct dialogue or what I call constructive feedback? Did I listen more than I spoke? Did I communicate not to be understood, but to understand? Did I customize my leadership style for everyone who reports to me? And these are all things that take time, and investment and brain and passion-


- [Jason] And being deliberate and intentional, absolutely.


- And the last two, did I not just delegate effectively but did I truly empower? Did I set them up for success? Did I really let go and let them run and do it as maybe my leader might've done for me years ago? And finally, did I inspire? Inspiration is so powerful, and it's more powerful and more important. Don't worry about did you motivate them? They will motivate themselves if you're able to align their positions, their jobs with their passion. But if you can inspire, they will self motivate, and that's more effective, and we've learned that. You're reminding me of a previous episode where we talked to Dolly Penland and she does personality analytics. And she taught me one thing. Just like you said, when I input my information into their system and it came back immediately, it resonated with me, as you said earlier, representing who I am is very validating to me, but the one thing she taught me about my personality profile at the time was that I'm quick to delegate tasks and assignments, but I'm hesitant to delegate authority. And that really resonated with me. It challenged me at first. And so now I'm always very mindful of that, and have improved tremendously in that area. But you know, you're right. There's a big difference. And you have to be very intentional about knowing your audience as we say in the PR and communications field. And that includes especially one-on-one with your direct reports. And that's why I believe that great leaders can only have so many direct reports, because you have to optimize every one of those relationships and engagements. And so if you can delegate a lot of that to other people to be leaders, then I think you have a much stronger organization because of that. So Ken, we're going to, oh, go ahead.


- Because that forces you then to have more people in direct report to those three or four or six under you. So now they're starting to develop their leadership skill. And I think that's part of the leadership legacy. If you've been fortunate enough to work for a great leader, and I was very fortunate to work for some great leaders over my career, that was their gift to me, and this is your opportunity, your gifts. So at one point you went out on the trapeze or the high wire, and they were the safety net. Now it's your chance to be the safety net.

- [Jason] That's so good.


- Get people on the wire.


- So Ken, we're going to list out in the show notes a couple of these items we talked about today, but you also have an offer or an opportunity to connect with you that we wanted to share with the audiences we're wrapping up.


- Sure. So I have a few. I really have like three complimentary offers. Ooh complimentary, that's always good right? If you're having challenges leading yourself or others because of the pandemic, because of this ongoing environment, hit me up, ken@jacobscomm.com, And we'll do a complimentary session. You may be amazed at what we can achieve in an hour. If someone on your team, on your leadership team is struggling, we'll offer the same to them. If you're doing fine leading through the pandemic, but you simply want to explore how coaching can help you achieve and surpass your organizational goals, your career goals, your personal goals by becoming this more effective, inspiring leader, reach out to me, and we're happy to offer that on a complimentary basis. We do have a new leadership ebook. It's our second. And it's on our website, which I know you're going to share in the notes. And also on my website, we have something called Taking the Lead. It's a series of video interviews with various leaders who happen to be from the PR world. But it's really more about leadership than about PR. And I think you might get up a nice dose of inspiration.


- Very nice.


- Lots of things for you.


- If someone is listening to this right now, and they're saying, man, I like this guy Ken. Jason's right, he's a super nice guy. He knows what he's talking about on the leadership side. And I'd like to connect with him more. Is there a preferred social media channel that they would be best to reach you? Social media if they don't want to go right to email or the website, 'cause we have a contact page on the website, find me on LinkedIn. If you just look up, the Ken Jacobs with my initials, you know, my PCC, CPC after my name, you'll find me. But then I think most professionals like LinkedIn. I am on Twitter @Kensviews. K-E-N-S V-I-E-W-S, but I'm eminently findable.


- Excellent, yes. Terrific. Well, this has been a great episode. I'm so glad you joined us. I'm glad you're here and the conversation could keep going on and on, but you're always inspiring and encouraging. And I really appreciate that. And thank you for how you give back to the profession.


- Well, you're always kind, and I thank you for the invitation and for our friendship.


- Yeah, me too. Thank you, Ken. Be well, and if you enjoyed this podcast, please be sure to share it with others, either through your social media or through a direct email especially if you know someone who would be encouraged by this message, and who you think is a great leader and let them know that you heard this vodcast and you thought of them and you wanted to share it with them. So otherwise thank you for watching and or listening, and has been a pleasure to be here today with you "On Top of PR."


- [Announcer] This has been "On Top of PR," with Jason Mudd, presented by ReviewMaxer.

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