In this episode, Mark Riggs joins On Top of PR host Jason Mudd to discuss how brands can build stronger relationships with their PR agencies, set clear expectations, and maximize their agency partnerships. Tune in to learn more!
Tune in to learn more!
Our guest
Mark Riggs is the CEO and lead strategist of Pemberton, a management consultancy helping PR and marketing agencies achieve organic growth. With over two decades of experience, Mark has led successful campaigns for major brands and specializes in guiding agencies toward better client relationships and business strategies. His deep industry knowledge makes him a sought-after consultant and speaker.
Watch the episode here:
Listen to the episode here:
5 things you’ll learn during the full episode:
- Why unspoken expectations can hinder agency-client relationships
- How agencies and clients can align their goals for better results
- The importance of defining measurable success metrics
- How agencies can push back when clients demand work beyond the scope
- The best way for brands to collaborate with their agencies for long-term success
About Nicole Scarbrough
Mark Riggs is the CEO and lead strategist of Pemberton, a management consultancy helping PR and marketing agencies achieve organic growth. With over two decades of experience, Mark has led successful campaigns for major brands and specializes in guiding agencies toward better client relationships and business strategies. His deep industry knowledge makes him a sought-after consultant and speaker.
Quotables
- "Unexpressed expectations lead to frustration. Transparency is key." — Mark Riggs
- "Agencies should be treated as strategic partners, not just vendors." — @JasonMudd9
- "Define your success metrics from day one to ensure alignment." — Mark Riggs
- "PR is more than just media coverage; it's strategic communication." — @JasonMudd9
- "If you're hiring an agency, give them the data they need to measure success." — Mark Riggs
Resources
- Mark Riggs on LinkedIn: Mark Riggs on LinkedIn
- Pemberton website: Pemberton Worldwide
Additional Episode Resources from Axia Public Relations:
- Listen to more episodes of the On Top of PR podcast.
- Find out more about Axia Public Relations.
Disclosure: One or more of the links we shared here might be affiliate links that offer us a referral reward when you buy from them.
Episode Highlights
- [00:01:24] Strategy & Investment Issue #1: Not Investing in Right Resources Jason Mudd Social media often has a "department of one" expected to handle everything from content creation to community management. This is unreasonable - social media needs to be treated as its own department with specialized roles like designers, writers, strategists, and coordinators.
- [00:03:44] Strategy & Investment Issue #2: Not Optimizing for Each Platform Jason Mudd Many brands simply copy and paste the same content across LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok. Each platform is unique with different content formats - what works on one won't necessarily work on another. Define your brand's identity for each platform.
- [00:06:05] Strategy & Investment Issue #4: Measuring Wrong Metrics Jason Mudd Too many focus on vanity metrics like follower count, likes, comments, and shares. These mean little without engagement and conversions from your target audience. Look at click-through rates and steady growth instead.
- [00:09:53] Engagement Issue #2: Underestimating Employee Advocacy Power Jason Mudd Employees can be your best brand ambassadors, but proper management is essential. Consult HR and legal before implementing an advocacy program, and ensure employees properly disclose their relationship when promoting the company.
- [00:22:54] Execution Issue #4: No Crisis Plan in Place Jason Mudd Have a crisis response plan ready for when your company goes viral for the wrong reasons. Work with crisis communication advisors to prepare messaging and materials
Our On Top of PR sponsors:
Production sponsor: Axia Public Relations, one of America’s Best PR Agencies, according to Forbes Magazine
Presenting sponsor: ReviewMaxer, the platform for monitoring, improving, and promoting online customer reviews
Coffee Sponsor: Fans like you fuel our efforts using buy me a coffee.
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Transcript
00:00:00:02 - 00:00:09:08
Jason
This episode is brought to you by Audible. Enjoy 30 days free of Audible Premium Plus by going to ontopofpr.com/audible.
00:00:09:08 - 00:00:19:07
Announcer
Welcome to On Top of PR with Jason Mudd, presented by ReviewMaxer.
00:00:19:07 - 00:00:33:10
Jason
Hello and welcome to On Top of PR. I’m your host, Jason Mudd with Axia Public Relations. Today I'm joined by Mark Riggs, the CEO and lead strategist of Pemberton, a management consultancy focused on guiding marketing and communications agencies towards organic growth.
00:00:33:12 - 00:00:54:08
Jason
With more than 20 years of experience in the agency sector, he has worked with notable firms. Throughout his career, Mark has developed award winning consumer programs for major brands including Allstate, Honda, Ford and Coca-Cola. Mark is a friend, a smart friend of that, and we're certainly going to enjoy that. You'll certainly enjoy the conversation we're going to have today.
00:00:54:10 - 00:01:24:06
Jason
Mark, I want to welcome you to on top of PR. Thanks for having me, Jason. Yeah. So I know you normally work as a consultant to PR firms and advertising agencies to help them improve their services to brands and clients. And today, we're kind of flipping the script a little bit and sharing some of your advice that you get paid the big bucks for sharing with agencies, and sharing them with clients.
00:01:24:06 - 00:01:47:06
Jason
So to kind of educate and inform clients on a little bit of the inside or secrets of what they're missing out on, with having the best agency relationship and partnership. And that's the things that you help agencies do. And we're taking this opportunity to kind of share with brands what things they could be doing to allow their agencies to be an even better partner.
00:01:47:06 - 00:01:55:16
Jason
Does that sound like a good summary of what we're going to cover today? Yes. Sounds like we just perfect. Okay, great. So,
00:01:55:16 - 00:02:10:20
Jason
Mark, I know you've got a list of things that you could talk about overall. Kind of. You know, we're recording this on February 21st, 2025, and I know the content you're going to share is going to be applicable for years to come for our audience who are listening on demand.
00:02:10:22 - 00:02:39:23
Jason
But you know, kind of where we are right now, where you are in your career, kind of what's the one kind of exclamation point or, you know, the most important thing our audience of brands, and corporations who are buyers of PR firm services or doing PR in-house, you know, what's one thing they need to know about the current marketplace and or how to, you know, best, leverage their agency resources?
00:02:40:01 - 00:02:45:14
Jason
And I think answers time's right.
00:02:45:16 - 00:03:28:10
Jason
You know, someone said to me a long time ago, this is not an original quote, but unexpressed expectations. So and I think a lot of times brands, companies or agencies, come to see me. And that agency is like every other agency knew what they were. Right. About an agency. And they think this was like, right. And so to me, what's going to be indicative of success with that agency is the way you start with is so being very clear about your expectations or of them, what you want the outcomes to be, how you want story to that a little bit about that.
00:03:28:12 - 00:03:41:05
Jason
But.
00:03:41:07 - 00:03:46:08
Jason
It's an interesting.
00:03:46:10 - 00:04:03:02
Jason
Tell me so much for. Because it's it's frustrating. Because we don't really have.
00:04:03:04 - 00:04:31:04
Jason
These objectives. So the big thing is from the very beginning. You can. Even if it's.
00:04:31:06 - 00:04:40:21
Jason
Be you. Right.
00:04:40:23 - 00:04:45:09
Jason
But I thought.
00:04:45:11 - 00:04:56:03
Jason
To.
00:04:56:05 - 00:05:03:02
Jason
And she said no. She says.
00:05:03:04 - 00:05:05:23
Jason
I.
00:05:06:01 - 00:05:15:18
Jason
Write unexpressed expectations. Right? Right. So I.
00:05:15:20 - 00:05:36:19
Jason
Don't think you write. So you have to express your aspirations. You know, you can't. You can't miss, you. Need.
00:05:36:21 - 00:05:47:14
Jason
Yeah, 100%. And you just say. Yeah. And so that was the.
00:05:47:16 - 00:05:59:23
Jason
It also goes back to. An agency. Readiness.
00:06:00:01 - 00:06:04:18
Jason
They get something signed.
00:06:04:20 - 00:06:34:11
Jason
Right. And we don't stop to say, specific things in. Need to, because in which we use words like community relations as needed things. You know, with the agency, there's an expectation.
00:06:34:13 - 00:06:43:19
Jason
Community. Because we set the expectation that you.
00:06:43:21 - 00:07:07:20
Jason
You told me when you. That you you know. So to me that 16 years expressing expectations that you're looking for this. Isn't that you want to be.
00:07:07:22 - 00:07:12:08
Jason
Just last time I worked.
00:07:12:10 - 00:07:28:16
Jason
The 57. That's incredible. I thought it was closer to, like, you know, 3000 at the most. You felt, you know.
00:07:28:18 - 00:07:40:20
Jason
There's a lot. Yeah. This notion that we're on the same.
00:07:40:22 - 00:07:43:11
Jason
Agency.
00:07:43:11 - 00:07:46:17
Mark
you know, apply those key learnings and express your expectations.
00:07:46:17 - 00:07:48:13
Mark
So we're all on the same page.
00:07:48:13 - 00:08:05:23
Jason
Yeah. I agree with you 100%. You know, my job at the agency is to talk to potential clients who contact us, and I'm kind of you know, just as much as they're screening and vetting us, I'm screening and vetting them to. And I'm listening, careful to their word choices and how they describe their existing relationship.
00:08:05:23 - 00:08:27:15
Jason
And, you know, I'm a little bit known for saying, hey, why don't you go back to your current agency and have this conversation with them instead of me? And if you guys can't work it out or doesn't get better, you know, come back to me. But what you're describing, I think, is kind of like you're saying, Mark, you know, un communicated expectations or just a little bit of change in alignment.
00:08:27:15 - 00:08:53:05
Jason
And, you know, I want to circle back to what you said earlier. You're working at an agency and the client's telling you, hey, pull it back a little bit, you know, but for every client that wants it pulled back a little bit, there's another client that wants it turned up another notch or two. Right. And so, you know, I personally have had, you know, CEOs, typically the owner entrepreneur behind the brand call me after hours and say, hey, what what are we doing with our PR program?
00:08:53:05 - 00:09:16:02
Jason
I don't have time, you know, during the day to think about it or ask my marketing people. So I just decide to call you on a Friday night at 7:00 to, you know, have you do a run down in a briefing? And I'm like, well, that's nice. I'm out to dinner. You know, like, I answer this because I thought there might be something urgent, but, you know, I guarantee there's something in your email and we can circle back on Monday or next week during business hours.
00:09:16:02 - 00:09:40:04
Jason
And then they proceed to tell me how busy they are during business hours. And I just. Well, that wasn't part of our, you know, expectation, scope of work or whatever it might be. So, you know, happy to brief you, but can't do it right now, you know, and, but then I've had other clients not exactly what you described, but just one of those things like, hey, you know, slow down a little bit, you know, like a little less intense for us.
00:09:40:06 - 00:09:57:15
Jason
And so those are really good conversations to have. And I think clients that have the client that's asking them to scale back or scale back the intensity or, you know, usually surprised but happy about it. And then the ones who are like, you know, you know, I expect you to be on call 24 over seven 365, including Christmas.
00:09:57:15 - 00:10:04:04
Jason
You know, is is a little extreme.
00:10:04:06 - 00:10:10:04
Jason
Yeah.
00:10:10:06 - 00:10:17:09
Jason
Thing happens really.
00:10:17:11 - 00:10:33:21
Jason
Right. We're actually kind. We're not here. Right, right. And we're the agency.
00:10:33:23 - 00:10:38:21
Jason
Right.
00:10:38:23 - 00:10:43:11
Jason
You know.
00:10:43:13 - 00:10:51:05
Jason
Yeah. Right. So you as.
00:10:51:07 - 00:11:14:17
Jason
Like as. Well based on what you're saying, I said again. Right. To ensure some reasonable standard. So I started to do this right.
00:11:14:19 - 00:11:35:00
Jason
I've got another client. Right. I'm getting into somebody else's time. Right. Yeah. And I promised you guys if you ask me for six, I mean, I'm willing to,
00:11:35:02 - 00:11:46:20
Jason
If you're constantly asking for ten things right? That's what you're saying. So when these clients come.
00:11:46:22 - 00:12:17:13
Jason
Here to do x, y asking for the things that they. And you asking them to do, they. And the problem we do on the agency side experiencing. Right. And I really. Right. You know supporting this. Right. Right. Yeah.
00:12:17:15 - 00:12:29:02
Jason
Just continue. To do this for.
00:12:29:04 - 00:12:36:13
Jason
Cuz you know all the things to do that.
00:12:36:15 - 00:12:51:16
Jason
That's why in the very beginning it's really important to listen to the agencies. It's I think if we're going to be.
00:12:51:18 - 00:12:52:15
Jason
Yeah.
00:12:52:15 - 00:12:55:15
Mark
only as good as the information I have right?
00:12:55:18 - 00:13:13:10
Jason
Yeah. I feel like sometimes the, the clients don't really hear that they you might share it to them, but they don't really hear it because they're thinking of themself as the buyer and almost like the agency's subordinate. And I feel like that's starting the relationship off to a bad start. You know, our position is we're peers, we're equals.
00:13:13:10 - 00:13:35:18
Jason
We're adding equal value to each other's organizations. We're trusted, you know, advisors, trusted experts. And in turn, you know, you're hiring us for our expertise. We're providing our services to help you grow your business. You know, we we often think that we're probably never going to know, as much about their business and their company, as they do.
00:13:35:20 - 00:14:07:06
Jason
However, when the client turnover happens, we typically, you know, are the ones educating them about the company, which is fine. That's part of the value we bring. But yeah, I think that's important. The other thing, you know, you mentioned earlier, like if you hire an agency to do five things, I'm going to. Yes. And you and say when the scope says those five things are five things related to media relations, and you've got a team of experts doing media relations because people think of media relations when they think of PR, but then you're like, well, you know what?
00:14:07:06 - 00:14:33:12
Jason
Since you said that one of the five things isn't newsworthy, how about you write a blog post for us about that? Or you write a, a case study? Well, suddenly you're asking somebody who's a media relations expert to do something outside of their expertise or their specialization, and for the agency that represents a problem, because I've hired Mark to do five media pitches during a certain period of time.
00:14:33:17 - 00:14:55:10
Jason
Now Mark saying, well, let's only do two media pitches and let's trade in those other three things for a series or one blog post, case study, some social media. Well, now is the agency. They've got the challenge of finding people who have that specialization to jump on a client for just a quarter or, six months or a year, whatever it might be.
00:14:55:15 - 00:15:15:14
Jason
But for a one time deliverable and then they're out again. Right. And so that's part of the challenge, I think, too, is, you know, clients. Well, why don't you just write some web copy for us? Right. And it's like, well, you know, David is great at media relations. He's a pretty good writer, but he's not the guy to be writing, you know, converting landing pages on your website.
00:15:15:16 - 00:15:32:04
Jason
And then the other thing I think is important, too, is, you know, I ask clients, you know, you know, like, if a company comes to us and they're like, well, we want, you know, I had this happen last week. Mark, I can't make this up. Client came to us and said, hey, I know you offered this for two of our executives, but we want it for three.
00:15:32:06 - 00:15:50:15
Jason
And, we want it to be the same price as the Is. The package was originally for two. And we want to be able to walk away at any time. Not with the, you know, the cancellation notice that you put in the agreement. And so I'm like, okay, well, let me let me repeat back to you what you're asking.
00:15:50:15 - 00:16:09:07
Jason
Right. And I said, you're asking us to reduce the price by 40%. Give it to you on a shorter timeline and then give you, you know, the same scope of work. And they're like, yeah, yeah, that seems reasonable to us. And I said, do you do that in your own business? You know, would you let customers come?
00:16:09:09 - 00:16:29:07
Jason
Yeah, customers come on and tell you what they're going to pay you, and negotiate and, and, and to, if you're allowing that, you really need our help, you know, and, and so that, to me is a real life conversation I just had. And so, you know, my favorite part of that was kind of repeating it back to them to see how they reacted.
00:16:29:07 - 00:16:51:13
Jason
Right. And the most junior person, you know, said, yeah, that's what we're asking. And you could see the senior people being like, yeah, okay. Yeah. He's he's he's got a good point here. So, you know, I think like you said, your agency is a business. They're not a, you know, low cost supplier or vendor. And the more intellectual capital they have, the more valuable their insights.
00:16:51:13 - 00:17:02:05
Jason
And, and and specialization experience are and they are to you, the harder it is for, for them to do things like that for free.
00:17:02:07 - 00:17:16:06
Jason
That's the situation because, you know, I work in a client ten years and about a year from, we want to institutionalize.
00:17:16:08 - 00:17:27:14
Jason
A professional sports team. Right.
00:17:27:16 - 00:17:41:05
Jason
So they're more expensive so I can trade between staff and so.
00:17:41:07 - 00:17:55:15
Jason
I think, yeah, just their clients. I think they understand. So I say the client, I.
00:17:55:17 - 00:18:07:05
Jason
I expect to work at. Yeah. So. Yeah. Right. Right.
00:18:07:07 - 00:18:31:13
Jason
And based on the past experience relative to the office, all these things. Why are you asking? Right. And that's, you know. Is people in our industry system. The same.
00:18:31:13 - 00:18:34:12
Mark
I'm more than glad to do all that work for you.
00:18:34:14 - 00:18:36:05
Mark
I'll get you an estimate.
00:18:36:10 - 00:19:01:06
Jason
Right, right. Well, let's go back to that conversation we were having earlier where we were talking about, you know, candidly, kind of the lack of, you know, MBAs, maybe even the lack of attorneys that decide to go into the practice of PR, corporate communication and content, if you will. You know, because obviously PR is evolved to become much well, first of all, PR has always been more than media coverage.
00:19:01:08 - 00:19:42:15
Jason
And certainly with the tools we have, at our digital display, you know, PR people are becoming more and more strategic communicators using digital tools to get that done on behalf of their employer, clients, brands, etc.. But to that end, you know, I think you I know for a fact, because we're friends and we've met in industry events and I've heard you speak, you know, your advising agencies to, you know, educate their people on business, seek out people who have the credentials and understand how business works, because the more we understand about business, the better advisors we can be to our employers and clients, etc..
00:19:42:17 - 00:20:15:12
Jason
But I, I'm kind of flipping this around and saying, but, you know, clients brands should be thinking the same thing about their people. And oftentimes their people do have MBAs. And oftentimes the employer pays for it. But they should also, I mean, you know, every agency can raise their hand and said, I've had a conversation with someone who asked me what kind of ROI are they going to get from their investment in our PR services, but yet they couldn't tell me what their current sales are, what their costs are, and what their margins are.
00:20:15:14 - 00:20:39:02
Jason
And so I'm trying to educate somebody on the other line who is an expert about their company and their business, but just educating them about business and saying, I can't tell you what your ROI is going to be, because one that's really hard to do because we don't know what it's going to happen in the marketplace. But two, if you can't tell me your margins, and your cost of doing business, then I can't predict to you your ROI.
00:20:39:02 - 00:21:11:08
Jason
I can predict maybe your return on value. I might be able to predict how that might impact sales, but just because sales went up doesn't mean that you got an ROI. Because technically, an ROI is a return on the profits or the total investment, right? What goes in the shareholders pockets afterwards. And that conversation sometimes candidly, kind of will pardon my term but piss some people off because, you know, I've now kind of put them on the spot and they've been talking about ROI for years and realized, one, they don't know what ROI means.
00:21:11:08 - 00:21:30:01
Jason
And two, they're asking me to answer a question that they can supplement me with the content they need. Then they might go back. And I'm talking a little bit about this, but, you know, they may go back to it might be a privately private company, and no one's giving out that kind of information. Right. And so then they realize, oh, I'm not in this position.
00:21:30:01 - 00:21:45:21
Jason
I thought I was within the organization, kind of thing. So what what do you think about that? Mark?
00:21:45:23 - 00:22:08:04
Jason
I only see this information. Right? Yeah, exactly. And so, so not only is the agency, but so are your people that work in your in your marketing or communications department, right. If you.
00:22:08:06 - 00:22:22:10
Jason
Do a real life example even in real time. So I'm working with an agency. And they,
00:22:22:12 - 00:22:28:11
Jason
Right. Help agencies.
00:22:28:13 - 00:22:44:04
Jason
So this particular site. There they are. Which they generally don't respond to. This is a great opportunity, which.
00:22:44:06 - 00:23:04:20
Jason
Agencies is another piece of advice for clients, agencies. Right, right. So in the RFP, the is was in support of a very large.
00:23:04:22 - 00:23:12:19
Jason
Okay. Things we need to do is increase.
00:23:12:20 - 00:23:25:03
Jason
That was the right right right. But do they even know what it is right now. Right. Yeah.
00:23:25:05 - 00:23:36:06
Jason
Right, right right. Yeah. That's that's.
00:23:36:08 - 00:23:42:05
Jason
Yeah. Yeah yeah. Yeah
00:23:42:05 - 00:23:43:09
Mark
and all this kind of stuff,
00:23:43:09 - 00:24:00:06
Jason
I, I've literally been asked hey Jason how has your efforts increased our foot traffic. And I said well what is your foot traffic right now or you know, what is it. What, what is it currently. And they're like oh we don't know Mike. Well, how am I supposed to tell you how much we've increased your foot traffic if you don't even know what your foot traffic is, right.
00:24:00:11 - 00:24:13:03
Jason
So I think it's just these moments where they don't really, understand that data is required to measure.
00:24:13:05 - 00:24:24:13
Jason
How we should do it. Measured. Yeah, absolutely. That's usually what we say. Yeah. Yeah.
00:24:24:15 - 00:24:26:10
Jason
Yeah. So you
00:24:26:10 - 00:24:28:22
Mark
sold some services there, Jason. You're welcome.
00:24:28:22 - 00:25:10:03
Jason
Or my other favorite, mark is, Hey, can you send a report about, you know, impact or none of that? That we've had and you've kind of say to the client, this is the first time you've responded or had any interest in talking about measurement, even though we've tried to have those conversation lines and you've either been too busy or I don't have that information, and now because somebody asked you, you're like, hey, can you send over something later today that we can show, you know, measure our progress and we're like, oof, you know, that doesn't exist.
00:25:10:05 - 00:25:18:16
Jason
One of the first things we always talk.
00:25:18:18 - 00:25:28:01
Jason
And our feelings about these.
00:25:28:03 - 00:25:46:20
Jason
Turned out to be true. So my point is I would choose my friends which. Is that you have things he's not willing to talk. Not right.
00:25:46:22 - 00:25:54:06
Jason
Right. And so you want someone to ask.
00:25:54:08 - 00:26:01:01
Jason
Well I want to be able to make a reasonable.
00:26:01:03 - 00:26:13:06
Jason
So let's assume that we're doing that. We gotta deal with that. Same.
00:26:13:07 - 00:26:27:16
Jason
Reaction. The solution. You know the things I always find is. On the agency side generally.
00:26:27:18 - 00:26:54:17
Jason
Right. Yeah. Yeah yeah. You know and you generally. Right. I think I. Right, right. And so let's have a conversation. Let's talk about the.
00:26:54:19 - 00:26:59:13
Jason
Because.
00:26:59:15 - 00:27:05:04
Jason
Those same clients come back to the same.
00:27:05:05 - 00:27:09:04
Jason
Need more.
00:27:14:01 - 00:27:31:11
Jason
Okay. Right. I it. Yeah. Right. Right.
00:27:31:13 - 00:27:45:04
Jason
Right. Yeah. Well I think yeah I mean aren't they talking about repetitions ultimately. Right.
00:27:45:05 - 00:28:01:12
Jason
Oh yeah. No. Yeah.
00:28:01:14 - 00:28:11:04
Jason
Right. Exactly. Yeah.
00:28:11:06 - 00:28:11:21
Jason
Right.
00:28:11:21 - 00:28:14:15
Mark
We're having the wrong conversation and I'm talking to the wrong person.
00:28:14:15 - 00:28:16:02
Jason
Yeah yeah.
00:28:16:02 - 00:28:40:15
Announcer
You're listening to on top of PR with your host, Jason Mudd. Jason is a trusted advisor to some of America's most admired and fastest growing brands. He is the managing partner at Axia Public Relations, a PR agency that guides news, social and web strategies for national companies. And now, back to the show.
00:28:40:15 - 00:28:58:19
Jason
So, do you have any tips for, clients brand manager. You know, directors of marketing when they're in these situations? What what would you do if you were them. How would you go about, approaching leadership or going about getting access to data? Because I know is the agency we've been told.
00:28:58:19 - 00:29:21:13
Jason
Well, we have that information. We could share it with you, but we think it's proprietary or, you know, our, our, our CIO or our sales guy or somebody isn't comfortable giving that out, you know, then it's like, okay, well, our hands are tied then. So what would you do? Thinking of the brand manager, if you will, in trying to manage these expectations or these limitations internally?
00:29:21:15 - 00:29:26:17
Jason
This is the.
00:29:26:19 - 00:29:30:17
Jason
But to me, I want to.
00:29:30:19 - 00:29:48:20
Jason
Be working or nonworking dollars. Okay. Okay. And. If they don't. But, Yeah.
00:29:48:22 - 00:30:05:15
Jason
That's right. That's business. Yeah. And so are you colleague or boss or, you know, you know, you know. Yeah. Let's give.
00:30:05:17 - 00:30:34:14
Jason
Right. Yeah, I think. Right. Yeah. So just if there's going to be, Right. Are you. Yeah. So many times I might say.
00:30:34:16 - 00:30:43:03
Jason
Right. Right. I think you.
00:30:43:05 - 00:30:51:14
Jason
Right. That's what the code word is. Right. Yeah. Yeah. You know.
00:30:51:16 - 00:30:56:22
Jason
So sure. Right. Yeah.
00:30:56:22 - 00:30:58:09
Mark
back end 100%.
00:30:58:09 - 00:31:05:06
Mark
I'm here. We can talk about investment. Right. And so that again goes back to your agency's need to be able to speak the language of business
00:31:05:06 - 00:31:29:16
Jason
Right, right, right. I, I've just made a note right ROI and partner our terms that feel like sometimes, clients, agency people don't really know what those mean, but they throw it around loosely. Right. And one example I like to share is like, hey, I might be a shareholder in Apple, but they're not going to call me on a Friday afternoon and go, hey, we're short staff.
00:31:29:16 - 00:31:47:06
Jason
Could you come into the store and work a couple hours for us because you're a shareholder, right? They're not going to do that. And so, you know, that's kind of how I feel about, you know, with, business owners, you know, when I'm talking to fellow business owners, it's like, you've got to pay yourself a salary, right?
00:31:47:08 - 00:32:00:07
Jason
The return on investment for running an agency or running a business or whatever. Right. That's for the risk you take and the capital you put into it. Not for the hours you put into it, because you need to.
00:32:00:09 - 00:32:18:18
Jason
Right. Yeah. Yeah. But you were going to say something before I interrupted Mark. Okay, brilliant. Right, right. So,
00:32:18:20 - 00:32:22:17
Jason
I have.
00:32:22:19 - 00:32:30:22
Jason
And I.
00:32:31:00 - 00:32:37:02
Jason
And you asked me was.
00:32:37:04 - 00:32:41:05
Jason
And way my business.
00:32:41:07 - 00:32:51:13
Jason
Yeah. And I gave them a reason to.
00:32:51:15 - 00:32:55:15
Jason
Do.
00:33:05:05 - 00:33:11:08
Jason
And you can articulate easily.
00:33:11:10 - 00:33:20:20
Jason
Yeah. Right.
00:33:20:22 - 00:33:35:16
Jason
Right. But we kept bringing ideas so my job. It would be to clients hire me. They need to be.
00:33:35:17 - 00:33:42:10
Jason
Yeah. It is.
00:33:42:12 - 00:33:52:18
Jason
But. Yeah. Because when you don't want another agency.
00:33:52:18 - 00:33:58:07
Mark
RFP. And I got to, you know, get all these entries and how it's a year from now before I'm how I want this to work.
00:33:58:07 - 00:34:03:07
Jason
Right.
00:34:03:09 - 00:34:25:16
Jason
Right. Yeah. I think that's really good because I've seen firsthand where clients will tell you one quarter, you know hey I don't want any ideas. I'm busy you know or whatever. And then the next quarter they're like, hey I haven't gotten any ideas from you guys. You know, I want more ideas. And it's like, well, you know, and or what you just said.
00:34:25:18 - 00:34:46:23
Jason
We give them ideas. They don't pursue, express interest or give feedback on any of them. Or, you know, we send them, we follow up nothing. Right. Crickets. And then, you know, then the account manager or the team just says, oh, they they don't want anything else, you know, like whatever. And then they come back and say, well, you never you know, at first you gave us ideas, but then you stopped.
00:34:47:01 - 00:35:06:01
Jason
Right. And so I am constantly reminding my team, hey, new quarter, you got to send them new ideas. Well, they don't seem really interested in our ideas. Well, we're still going to, you know, we're still going to make time to share some ideas with them. And I've started putting it in the scope of work. Mark. So, yeah.
00:35:06:03 - 00:35:30:09
Jason
So every quarter we commit to bringing them new ideas and when they say no, I don't want to do that or I'm not available or skip the meeting, we just say, okay, that's fine. It's in your scope of work. Would you please confirm that you're okay with us not doing it this quarter or whatever? But, you know, meanwhile, you know, I'm saying, okay, well, let's at least record a zoom video with the best idea we have.
00:35:30:11 - 00:35:52:10
Jason
Tease it for 30s to two minutes market so we know if they watched it or not. And and then we can at least say we did something. But you know, at the end of the day, I know from, you know, having done this for 20 something years, research shows the one thing clients can't do internally is come up with ideas the way agencies can.
00:35:52:12 - 00:36:20:14
Jason
And, some of that is culture, right? Some of that is just understanding the process of building innovation within the organization, but also the objectivity that an agency brings in. Having seen, you know, hundreds of other campaigns, hundreds or dozens of other companies and how they're operating. And as you know, Mark, often in an agency has solved something already for another company that's now getting around to your industry or your company so they can say, yeah, we've done this before.
00:36:20:14 - 00:36:33:12
Jason
Here's the five things we did. So.
00:36:33:14 - 00:36:48:02
Jason
Years ago, there was a white paper. Okay. I just I still.
00:36:48:04 - 00:36:54:09
Jason
Okay. I don't need.
00:36:54:11 - 00:37:11:13
Jason
And one of the things he talks sense is not discussing how we should work. Right.
00:37:11:15 - 00:37:27:21
Jason
What we often hear hey here's Jason vs this is right. That's it. Yeah. Right.
00:37:32:14 - 00:37:38:13
Jason
Right. Because that same point as.
00:37:38:15 - 00:37:46:09
Jason
It is. You do realize.
00:37:46:10 - 00:37:52:06
Jason
John.
00:37:52:08 - 00:37:58:01
Jason
Right.
00:37:58:03 - 00:38:03:05
Jason
So Jason.
00:38:03:07 - 00:38:20:05
Jason
You're going to be the client. We're going to be you know let's look really you know. And you're going to be coming up with ideas. Yeah. Way.
00:38:20:07 - 00:38:35:00
Jason
Counselor. Right. Yeah I just want to. Yeah I know this is.
00:38:35:02 - 00:38:56:23
Jason
Right. So Jason. I think lots of times know those clients is the team system. Right. I'll bring the lead. System. Right.
00:38:57:01 - 00:39:03:21
Jason
So but if you.
00:39:03:23 - 00:39:21:22
Jason
Right. Yeah. Yeah that's a good point. Yeah. There's there's. Yeah. And so know if you're going to have an agency make sure that your community.
00:39:29:14 - 00:39:30:14
Jason
Thanks Lindsay.
00:39:30:14 - 00:39:33:00
Mark
because that's what Bob over here wanted before,
00:39:33:00 - 00:39:49:17
Jason
Yeah. Yeah I never thought about that. What about this. But you've inspired it which is you know one of the complaints I hear from companies that are coming to our agency is the last agency I hired. I met the leadership. And then once I signed on the dotted line, they disappeared.
00:39:49:17 - 00:40:16:01
Jason
I got these junior people. And the way I'm turning this around because I never thought about this way is. Yes, but that happens to us, too, right? The chief marketing officer meets us, makes a decision, hires us, and then we almost never have access to them again. And we're working with somebody else who is either barely involved or who just thrown in like, oh, hey, we just hired, you know, Axia and, you know, this is our marketing manager.
00:40:16:01 - 00:40:43:20
Jason
She's got a little bit of experience working with PR firms. She's going to take it from here. And then you go in that situation where the marketing manager doesn't have access to data, doesn't have access to approve ideas or movements. And I know that frustrates a lot of agencies, too, where you've got a big idea, but the person that you're pitching it to is like, I, I'm not I can't take that to management, you know, and or I not comfortable with the idea period of taking it to management.
00:40:43:20 - 00:40:59:17
Jason
So but then if you can get management, you know, at a conference or a dinner or something like that, and you run the idea by them, they're like, that's amazing. Like, yes, let's do this right away. Right. And you're thinking myself, oh, I've been trying for six months, you know, to get this in front of you. So yeah.
00:40:59:18 - 00:41:05:22
Jason
Yeah.
00:41:06:00 - 00:41:20:11
Jason
Yeah. Have you ever asked that? Oof! Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Right. Of course it is. Yeah.
00:41:20:13 - 00:41:24:15
Jason
Yeah.
00:41:24:17 - 00:41:32:10
Jason
Right.
00:41:32:12 - 00:41:45:14
Jason
Yeah. Parties, press releases and golf tee time at the golf course. Right? Yeah.
00:41:45:16 - 00:41:50:00
Jason
Absolutely. 100%.
00:41:50:02 - 00:41:57:02
Jason
You know, when I first met this person, this.
00:41:57:04 - 00:42:16:23
Jason
Is what I must do with this. Every problem. Good communication. Yeah. Yeah. And and you're hiring professional communicators at the same time. Yeah. So. Yeah. Yeah.
00:42:17:01 - 00:42:24:19
Jason
Yeah. There's no assumptions.
00:42:24:21 - 00:42:49:20
Jason
Yeah. Mark this has been great. We, I just checked we have run out of time. And so I think we could talk forever. But yeah. No I'm really glad we did this. Real quick, if people want to get in touch with you, I'm guessing LinkedIn's the best way to initially reach out to. On LinkedIn.
00:42:49:22 - 00:43:14:20
Jason
Is your website. And, you know. They, and on the website because, you know. Okay. Excellent. Yeah. All right. Mark, well, I appreciate you being here, sharing your smarts today. I took a lot of notes myself. I'm sure that our audience, has done so as well. And, if you can figure out the person to give that attribution to that we mentioned earlier, we will include that and other things on our website, on our episode notes.
00:43:14:20 - 00:43:34:06
Jason
If people just want to go to on top of PR, we'll have that in there as well for everybody to see. And, links to your website and how to find you on social media too. So, Mark, if you had 10s for closing thought, what would that be? If you're going to use the word okay. Yeah, I like that.
00:43:34:08 - 00:43:58:18
Jason
Collaboration is key. If you're looking to hire an extension of your staff. You can use words. Yeah. Right. Yeah it's a good point. All right Mark we appreciate you being here. And we also appreciate our audience for tuning in. This has been another episode of On Top of PR where we're trying to help you stay on top of PR.
00:43:58:19 - 00:44:10:01
Jason
Many thanks to Mark for his, expertise and insights today. And if there's ever anything we can do for you, just let us know in the comments. And, certainly if you'd like to hear, any additional topics, covered on this episode, we’ll be happy to do that to. So with that, I wish you well. Be well. Have a good day. Thanks for tuning in.
00:44:10:01 - 00:45:05:17
Announcer
This has been on top of PR with Jason Mud presented by Review Mixer. Be sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode and check out Paso's ad on top of pr.com.
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About your host Jason Mudd
On Top of PR host, Jason Mudd, is a trusted adviser and dynamic strategist for some of America’s most admired brands and fastest-growing companies. Since 1994, he’s worked with American Airlines, Budweiser, Dave & Buster’s, H&R Block, Hilton, HP, Miller Lite, New York Life, Pizza Hut, Southern Comfort, and Verizon. He founded Axia Public Relations in July 2002. Forbes named Axia as one of America’s Best PR Agencies.
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